Can We Eat Quality Meat and Still Protect the Environment?

Episode Transcript

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Hi everyone, welcome to the show. I’m Dr. Nicole, and on today’s episode, we are talking about why it’s time to upgrade our meat to support brain health and function for us and our children. Now, if you don’t think you really care about meat, you don’t eat meat, your kids refuse to eat meat, you have strong opinions about meat, whatever else, please continue listening. The issues around agriculture, animal farming, soil health, and more are some of the most pressing of our time. We all need to understand what’s happening in this realm, as it’s having a major impact on our children now and definitely will impact their future. And one of the people who is super knowledgeable about the importance of quality animal protein for health as well as all of the ways in which raising animals makes a difference is my friend, Autumn Smith. She’s actually been on the show before, a couple of years ago, and you all loved the episode that we did then. But I wanted to bring her back to really update us and help us understand what’s happening in the world currently around meat, and how we can ensure the best options for our families now and into the future. So let me tell you a little bit about Autumn.

She’s the co-founder of Paleovalley and Wild Pastures, holds a Master’s in Holistic Nutrition, is a certified Eating Psychology coach and a certified FDN practitioner. Her passion for health began with her own struggles with IBS and anxiety. Despite a career as a professional dancer and celebrity fitness trainer, Autumn’s own health was in shambles. Desperate for a cure, she and her husband stumbled onto the Paleo diet in 2011, and within a month of beginning it, her health was completely transformed. She made it her mission to share the information she learned with as many people as possible. She’s the co-founder of Paleovalley, an organic whole food supplement and paleo snack food company, which many of you know and love from the beef sticks and all the things that we talked about and that I shared about for your kids and for yourselves. And in 2018, she took things a step further and launched Wild Pastures, a regenerative pasture-based meat delivery service. Wild Pastures make supporting sustainable agriculture and local small farms easy for consumers. It’s an amazing company, we are going to talk about that. Also on the personal side, Autumn lives in Colorado with her husband and young son Maverick. Autumn, thank you for being here. It’s so great to have you back.

Autumn Smith

Yeah, it’s wonderful to be here. I love everything you are doing. And just you said, this isn’t a conversation I want to have about being right and other people or being wrong. I was a vegetarian earlier in my life, and I understand why people want to do that, and especially given the mainstream narrative. So I just wanted to say that, but thank you for having me.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Yeah, and you and I both come at this from both professional and personal standpoints. Our career revolves around nutrition, wellness, and helping people with those things. But also on the personal side, we are moms and we are concerned about the health and wellness of our families, of our kids. And so I think you are such a powerful voice around that, because you have both the personal and the professional pieces as well as your own story of your own health.

Autumn Smith

Thank you. Yes, and it is something that I worry about just because I think there’s a lot of misinformation and fear mongering, and I understand people’s hesitation, but I just kind of want to help people make the best decision they can, based on the actual evidence.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

I actually want to start with this controversial case because I know some people are listening and they heard the intro, like “Okay, Dr. Nicole, I’m going to hang in there. I’m going to listen to this.” Let’s start with this issue of how it is that the narrative became so prevalent that meat is harmful, that we need to reduce the consumption of meat, that meat is a problem for the environment, meat is a problem for us. Kind of take us through how that story originated.

Autumn Smith

It’s a fascinating one, because as loud as this message is and as pervasive, you would think it came from really great science or maybe historical evidence or evolutionary evidence, but, in fact, we know we have been eating meat for about 2.6 million years. Some people believe it’s one of the reasons that we developed our brain. There hasn’t ever really been a truly, truly vegan culture, ever. And so it originated in ideology and religion, also in profit, as I will tell you in a second, and some flawed science, some kind of inadequate science, in my opinion. So the religious underpinnings came from a few places, but the Seventh Adventist Church. Ellen G. White had visions from God, and He told her that the Garden of Eden diet, or a holier diet had fruits, nuts, seeds, legumes and little if any meat, and that she believed and a lot of other people at this time, that meat was a stimulant that aroused sexual desires, and that because pleasing yourself was a sin, she wanted to create alternatives, and Dr. John Harvey Kellogg was actually one of her students, and the processed food industry, the cereal industry actually came out of this belief to create alternatives. And the Seventh Day Adventists actually had a hand in the Dietitians Association, in founding it, and also they have their hand in the nation’s dietary guidelines. They are just a very influential group of people, and I do think they believe they are doing what’s best. But it’s true that it was rooted in ideology. And then we have a Procter and Gamble. They were cottonseed salesmen. They were actually making candles and soap. And when they realized they had all of this cottonseed oil leftover, they needed to do something with it when candle sales started to dwindle because of electricity, and because hydrogenation, the process, was recently invented, where you add hydrogen to liquid oils, and they become stable. They kind of looked like lard, which was the prevailing fat at the time. And they decided, well, we are going to launch this massive campaign about Crisco, which was their first cooking oil. And it was a brilliant marketing campaign, and they sent cooking books or cookbooks out about it, and got rabbis and celebrities to get behind this product, with no evidence whatsoever about its health benefits, no evidence, just a lot of claims. And unfortunately, now we know it includes transfat and transfat is banned and is being phased out of our food supply. But American didn’t people didn’t understand that, and I think we suffered as a result. And then we have Ancel Keys over here, who created the diet-heart hypothesis in 1958, presented a seven country study where it looked the more fat you ate, the more cardiovascular disease risk you had. But when all 22 countries that were available for the data were included, the correlation just wasn’t strong, and unfortunately Crisco and the sugar industry and William Proctor, they kind of gave money to the American Heart Association to tout their oils as heart-healthy oils, and to kind of put the blame on oils rather than sugar. So a lot of different factors kind of converged. But those were the origins, it wasn’t that we ran really great randomized control trials and saw that meat-free diets were the way to go, because we haven’t really ever — It’s an experiment, at its very core.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

You touch on so many important points there, that I think, generally, people are unaware of. I mean, some things that you just talked about, even I wasn’t aware of. But I think we, especially in the United States, we just take for granted, first of all, where our food even comes from, what it’s doing. If it’s available on the shelves, we don’t really question and think about where these stories come from. How did I get the idea that X, Y or Z is good for me or bad for me or whatever? And as you are showing us, when you start to dig into that, you start to discover, oh, wait, maybe a lot of the things that have been used to promote some of these ideas actually are very far from being facts.

Autumn Smith

Yeah. And I learned this all — I don’t know, have you ever heard of Dr. Gary Fettke? He’s an Australian physician, an orthopedic surgeon, and back in 2014, he was having to amputate the limbs of his diabetic patients. And he’s just told them “Maybe we should reduce the sugar in your diet.” Now at his hospital, he was turned in by a dietitian for telling someone without a controlled blood sugar that they should do this. And he had four and a half years of litigation, he had to defend himself. The cereal companies came in, and his wife was just like, “What is this force? We are showing them the low carb science, and this is how historically diabetes was treated. What is this pushback? I don’t think it has to do with science, because they were reciting the science so they are blue in the face.” And she uncovered a lot of this history, so I have just recently gotten to know her and some of the other pieces of the puzzle.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Well, and it’s really interesting, when we think about the sugar piece. Sugar, we are now understanding through volumes of research, and for those of you who have not listened to the podcast episode I did quite a while ago with the two scientists who wrote the book, Sugarproof, you want to check that out, because what we are finding now via good science, is that sugar is actually the problem here. The fats, the animal products have not been the problem. They have been demonized as the problem, but by and large, it’s the sugar in our diets currently, which has massively increased over the last several decades, the amount of sugars that people are consuming, and I think that’s a piece that lots of people don’t realize. And sugar, for a lot of reasons, political and otherwise, has gotten a pass. For the most part, it’s like, “Oh, we don’t talk about that. Let’s talk about reducing red meat and butter, but let’s not talk about all the sugar”, for a variety of the same reasons, right? There are very powerful forces that benefit from us not talking about that science.

Autumn Smith

100%. And there was a recent 2022 analysis that looked at between the years of 1800 and 2010, I think it was red meat consumption was down 44%, butter was down 68%, lard was down. But what was up was cooking oils, margarine, shortening, like you said, sugar, carbohydrates. And you are right, there is this whole push. There’s the Global Energy Balance network, I think it’s been updated since, but Coca-Cola originally gathered a team of scientists to kind of research and present the idea that it doesn’t matter what we are eating, we just have to get an energy balance. We have to be moving more, because when it’s our fault, then they can sell us whatever they want. And so yeah, I do think sugar is definitely one of the problems. I think processed carbohydrates, hyper palatable foods, which is 60% of our diet, are part of the problem. And I think blaming it on meat is just missing the far bigger elephant in the room, for sure.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Absolutely. Let’s get into why meat is so important for human health, because you and I both are passionate about this, and it’s one of the things that I get pushback from, from a very small segment of people online and in the community when I share this, but it’s so important for parents and for all of us to understand the benefits that quality animal meat brings to our health, particularly when we are talking about kids and brain development, and when we are talking about people of any age, who are struggling with brain-based issues, mental health issues. Meat is just so important. So I would love to have you talk about the benefits as you see them.

Autumn Smith

Yeah. I grew up a vegetarian. I wasn’t totally vegetarian all the time. But I didn’t eat a lot of animal products. I just wasn’t drawn to it, and I really struggled emotionally. I mean, it was so bad, I got kicked out of my parents house before I even graduated high school. And what we are seeing now, there was a really recent large review that people who didn’t eat meat in their diet had an increased risk of anxiety, depression, and self-harm. You see this, and we can’t be sure that it’s the diet, rather than the person who would adopt the diet, the chicken and the egg situation. But I do know that for our neurotransmitters and our brain chemicals, amino acids are the building blocks of our neurotransmitters. And omega three fatty acids are really hard in their animal-based form, they are complete and they can be used, and from plant forms, they have to be built, and the conversion isn’t as good. And a lot of times if you don’t have animal products in your diet, you are going to miss out on those. B12, vitamin B12, you can’t get from plant foods, right? There are analogues, there are foods that contain analogues, and sometimes they interfere with absorption. There’s been studies showing that there’s irreversible cognitive issues in kids who don’t eat meat, and even after you bring meat back into the diet. And so I don’t want to shame anyone. I understand why you would feel apprehensive about adding meat, because that is all the mainstream narrative is pushing. But also another thing that happens when we eliminate meat, a lot of times, is imbalanced blood sugar. I know you can get all of the amino acids with vegetable sources, but it’s a lot harder. You are going to eat a lot more, and if you are not skilled and paying a lot of attention, you could end up on a blood sugar rollercoaster like I was for most of my life. So animal products have a really high quality source of complete protein. Like I said, we are eating for amino acids, not just protein, and it’s going to be the score, the quality is way higher in animal products. It’s going to be more nutrient-dense foods. I know we all hear that vegetables are far more nutrient dense, but a lot of these ratings are excluding certain animal products, specific nutrients, they are demonizing food for calories or saturated fat content. And so in some updated rating systems, one created by Matthew Leland, you will see that organ meats are at the top, and then beef, and pork, and eggs. The vegetables and the fruit are at the bottom. And that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t eat them. Of course, we should eat them, just in terms of nutrient density. The nutrient density of our food is actually at the lowest point it’s ever been at for multiple reasons we could get into, but I think it’s important to know that you are going to get more nutrients per bite that way for sure. And then the last piece is bioavailability. So just because you see it on a label doesn’t mean that that is exactly what’s going to end up in your body in terms of nutrients. Your body has to be able to access those nutrients, and plants often contain nutrient inhibitors that can kind of interfere with absorption. Just for instance, iron: when you have heme iron, the animal based iron, you are going to absorb about 15 to 35%, whereas plant-based iron, about 2 to 20%. And so for all those reasons, keeping our blood sugar stable giving the brain the building blocks we need, it’s a higher quality source of protein. And also, it’s going to be more easily bioavailable and more easily accessible by your body. That’s why I think meat is just such an important part of the diet.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

So many important things you touch on there. And I was thinking there has been more research and talk, even in the clinical community, around some of the most chronic and difficult to treat mental health issues, which is the whole classification of eating disorders, and the connection between young people starting a vegetarian or vegan diet, and that being one of the top triggers for shifting into disordered eating. And really, the theory backed up by research is suddenly during a pivotal phase of their development in late adolescence and early adulthood, they are dramatically shifting the nutrients that are coming in, the amino acids that they are getting, and their brain just starts to decompensate, and they suddenly develop all of these significant mental illness issues that we see in eating disorders. And so that’s an important piece for parents to be aware of, especially now, when in the realm of social media, there are a lot of things that kids can access glorifying vegan diets, just all kinds of diets and things. And that can become really problematic, because when they are not getting the nutrients they need, you can really fairly quickly start to see some detrimental effects on brain function.

Autumn Smith

Absolutely, I had a friend who told me that her daughter had a friend who created a club, and you couldn’t be in the club if you ate meat. And these kids are about eight years old, and like you said, kids aren’t little adults. Their metabolism is burning brightly, they need more nutrients. Their brains rely on it. Their brains aren’t even developed fully until they are 25. And so this is why I’m so passionate about it. I think, if you don’t want to eat meat for ethical reasons, environmental reasons, we will get into that in a second, I understand that. But when it comes to children, I think it’s just important to know that they might suffer without it.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Well, for sure. And I think the nutrient density piece is important, especially if you are a parent of a child who maybe is a super picky eater or has a feeding disorder, you might be thinking, as we are talking about this, “I want my kids to eat meat, they won’t eat meat.” This is why it’s important to prioritize, with your treatment team, working some animal protein in some way into your protocols of what you are working on. I see a lot of years spent with a lot of kids with feeding issues working on acclimating them to goldfish crackers, and all of those things, and I understand if you need to start there, but one of the things that happens is you get in this trap where because they are not getting the complete nutrient-dense animal protein, that’s actually fueling the imbalances and the issues that are driving the picky eating. They get low in minerals like zinc and iron, then they gravitate but they don’t have enough of an appetite, all of these things. So, if you are thinking, “Oh, I wish my kid would eat meat, but they won’t. I have this super picky eater/this kid with feeding issues”, this is something to be aware of, and start to prioritize, even if you need to sneak it into things, use that initially, because that’s what helps get you out of, from a nutrient and a brain function standpoint, some of those patterns of picky eating. The kids have super low appetite because they are low in zinc, their iron is in the toilet, whatever, you are going to really struggle to get them eating more normally. So animal protein is just such a great way to approach that.

Autumn Smith

I 100% agree. And actually with my little guy, he wasn’t into it. He is kind of like me, he has my metabolism for sure, and I could see it happening as a youngster, but I realized, I didn’t think he absorbed it well. I mean, he didn’t digest it well. It was sitting, it made him feel full. So we had to kind of work on the digestion piece too. So if you have low levels of acid in your stomach, yeah, you eat meat and you might not feel good, but when you address that piece, we just did it with bitters, and we actually created an apple cider vinegar complex. You can also use a little bit of apple cider vinegar to stimulate your natural body’s ability to produce acid. You can also do it with enzymes, whatever, but there are multiple reasons a kid might not be eating it, and like you said, sneaking it in. Sometimes I make him these Açai bowls, and I sneak really high quality eggs in there. He has no idea they are even in there, but it’s a great source of protein. We also have a collagen powder that we can put in there. Collagen isn’t a complete protein, so you don’t want to be relying on it entirely, but it can be a supplement for sure. Little ways like that. And now, I ask him, “What do you want for breakfast?” And it’s, “I want my sausage.” We do a lot of steak around here for breakfast, but he’s come around to it. But in the beginning, he was definitely resistant.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

And it’s that continued exposure. We have talked about that in many episodes of the show. If you have listened to any of the episodes on picky eating, feeding issues: Exposure, exposure, exposure. And so it’s sticking with it, though. It’s not saying “Well, I tried to serve it a couple times, and he wouldn’t eat it.” And so to your point, Autumn, yeah, it’s a process, and it’s continuing to expose and make it available. One of the things you mentioned that people have concerns about and that we see more stories about in the media today, are concerns with the way the animals are raised, concerns about agriculture in general, concerns about the environment. Not a day goes by where I don’t see something on social media about “If you are eating animals, you are part of that, you are destroying the environment.” And people also get confused, because they are like, “Well, what do you mean by quality animal protein? I see different things at the grocery store, I see different labels, is there really a difference? What’s going on with that?” So let’s break that down, and have you talk about, from your perspective, what’s wrong with most of what’s happening in animal agriculture today?

Autumn Smith

Oh, my goodness. Well, when you walk into a grocery store, the problem is 95% of products you are going to see on the shelves are raised in confinement, and I think this is where my heart came in, because there’s a number of concerns. But when animals are raised in confinement, I think we have all seen the pictures and the videos, thousands of cows, tens or hundreds of thousands of smaller animals, all in one location. There’s a number of consequences. The first is of course, animal cruelty, right? They are taken from natural environments where they could actually be used for good, as we will talk about in a second, but then they are cramped, and then their manure becomes this burden, whereas in a natural system, it is actually an asset because 50% of the fertilizers used worldwide are manure, but when it’s in this huge amount, it becomes a source of groundwater pollution and air pollution. And then also, the problem is cows, usually, animals, ruminants will be able to self-select the foods that they need to keep and maintain their biochemistry. They know what they need. But when they are being given just concentrates and rations, then they can’t choose, they get sick, they get on antibiotics, antibiotics have a whole host of other concerns. And also the growing of the feed. Oftentimes we are using fertilizer, and again, that creates poisoning, algal blooms, fish kills, it’s destroying the soil biology and the Mycorrhiza fungi, as we can talk about, that actually make it possible for plants to access the minerals in the soil. And also we have just the additives. Antibiotic resistance is a huge global threat. 73% of the antibiotics used worldwide are in animals. And when you have that many animals around each other also, it creates superbugs, because these viruses can get in there and mutate in novel ways, and then be spread to human beings. And then there’s additives like ractopamine that are banned in 160 countries but used here in America, and there’s research showing that it can cause heart palpitations for humans, there have been poisonings. Lots of additives.

And the last thing is just the social elements. I think when America was created, 50% of the people in it were involved in food production. And when you are involved, when you own the land that you are laboring on, there’s an investment, there’s a certain care, there’s control. But now, a lot of these systems are JBS, which is a huge conglomerate, one of these corporations, Smithfield now owns a lot of property and acreage in Missouri, 50,000 acres. These are huge corporations, and their headquarters are in places like China and Brazil, and they are making the decisions, they are outsourcing their pollution to our country. And they are taking away our ability to have food sovereignty or total control over a food supply that is ours, that is raised by Americans who are proud of what they are doing for the land. So I think in terms of what we are doing most of the time in these confined animal feeding operations, there’s just a number of concerns. But fortunately, there’s a better way, and it was a way that we used to use before the advent of these other systems, and we could talk about that if you want to. But yeah, I’m really concerned with the way we are raising our animals today.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Yeah, I want to get into the alternative, because what I was going to say is it’s very fair to say after listening to that, that the way that our country at least currently raises animals and produces meat products for us to consume at the grocery store or whatever, is night and day different from several generations ago. Farming today, whether we are talking about animal farming or crop farming, whatever, it’s not even the same thing in many ways as it used to be. We have gotten so far away from that. And so I’m wondering, as you get into the alternative, is part of the solution going back to how we used to do things? Doing things in a way that is sort of always was how it was done before profits and whatever else got in the way?

Autumn Smith

Yeah, and I just want to say, too, I think there were reasons that we created this industrialized system. People thought the population was going to boom and we wouldn’t be able to feed everyone, and we had supplemental Vitamin A and D and a grain surplus, and our farmers and ranchers, they are good people. They are trapped in a bad system because what they are incentivized to do might not align with what they actually want to do. So I never want to demonize farmers and ranchers. I grew up in Montana, I loved them. They are great people. But yes, there is a different way, what we were using before the 1950s came around. And actually there’s a little twist on the old way, because what we are doing now is kind of integrating science, what we have learned about soil health and how animals can be grazing and how often they can be grazing, and created this system called regenerative agriculture. And the crux of it is we are healing the soil biology because approximately 75% of the world’s soils have been degraded. The Food and Agriculture Organization estimates we have 60 years of topsoil left. And so when I became a mom, I was very concerned from the ranchers and farmers that I was working with because of Paleovalley, when I heard that statistic, that my son might see a day where the soil is gone. And when the soil is gone, healthy food is gone, healthy animals are gone, healthy people are gone. And what a lot of people don’t know too, is that soils are the largest place we have to actually take the carbon out of the atmosphere and store it underground. It’s where it belongs. And when we have carbon there, it creates healthy plants, it creates water holding capacity. Like I said, it stores atmospheric carbon, it creates a healthy biodiversity ecosystem. And so the difference between regenerative agriculture and all other types of agriculture is its laser-like focus on these ecological outcomes, where it’s not about not using pesticides or fertilizers, even though that is a practice, it’s about “Is what I’m doing changing the ecosystem around me in a positive way?” And so you are using no-till, that’s one of the kind of staples of it. Also, you are focusing on photosynthesis, because it’s super nerdy, but it’s really interesting. Plants are our conduit, right? They take carbon out of the atmosphere, they are like little straws. They put it underground, they feed the microbes, the microbes actually make the nutrients in the soil available. I think this is why our crops are so nutrient-depleted. Not because the soils don’t have the nutrients, but because they don’t have their middlemen, they don’t have the fungi and the bacteria in the soil that would make those available. And then we integrate animals because we have heard this myth that livestock is killing our grasslands. But Dr. Allan Savory, he’s actually someone who has studied this for years, and he made the mistake of ordering a lot of elephants to be killed because he believed taking animals off the land was going to restore the grasslands. But what happens is that they kind of deteriorate. Ecosystems, grasslands, animals, they evolve together, they need each other. So animal integration is a big piece. Biodiversity, going from monocrop agriculture, where they do one kind of crop, to as many different species of plants and animals creating a habitat for life. And then of course, remembering context. So every farm is going to be different. Even the farmers we work with do very different things in very different regions, and just remembering that. But I think the big message of regenerative agriculture is that most of us are focused on sustainability. We want to heal the planet. But sustaining what we have now isn’t going to cut it, because we have degraded our system. And so we have to look to regenerate. Regenerate means to bring to a more high or worthy state, and so that’s what regenerative agriculture is focused on, and I think that’s what we need in order to create a system of animal agriculture that gives back, and there’s research to suggest that it does in powerful ways, we can get into that too, but its crux is just: How can we improve the environment, and use animals in that process?

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Because they are a natural part of that ecosystem. And so the argument that well, “If we just don’t eat any animals or we don’t factory farm animals, that’s going to solve the problem.” No, because you have got this delicate balance, you have to be doing this in a way where the ecosystem is working well. I love that. Let’s touch on probably the most practical point for people as they are considering this, like “Okay, I love that, supporting soil regeneration, all of those things”, but I think one of the most practical matters is how raising animals in this way, how regenerative agriculture actually affects the nutrient profile of the animal meats that we are eating, because there’s a big difference there, right?

Autumn Smith

Yeah, you know what? It’s funny. I’m just finishing my dissertation now, and I have got linked up with this brilliant researcher called Dr. van Vliet. Do you know him? He’s doing the missing piece. So yes, in every animal species, it’s different, right? The literature is so complex, because you have to take into consideration the breed, the geographical location, the season, what the forage is, because a lot of grass feeding doesn’t always mean just all grass. It can be monoculture, it can be diverse pastures, I mean, the complexity is unreal. But eggs and dairy seem to be very susceptible, in terms of antioxidants and omega three fatty acids increase, and then the levels of secondary compounds, which are usually considered fruits and vegetable-related compounds, but there’s thousands of them. They are very important and have kind of new benefits we are just starting to understand. So those levels rise appreciably. Chicken, you can have more protein and more omega 3s, which are considered your more anti-inflammatory fatty acids. Pork has a very inflammatory fatty acid ratio, generally, conventional pork, with 35 to 1, and we want to kind of aim for a 4 to 1. So one of our regenerative pig farmers ran an experiment and decided: What can I do? If I give them more grass, will it improve this ratio? And he got this ratio down to 5 to 1, which just speaks to how different it can be. And when it comes to beef, we are going to improve the fatty acid ratio, we are going to have more omega 3 fatty acids, we are going to have beneficial fatty acids like CLA, we are going to have more antioxidants. It varies by study, B vitamins and minerals, that really kind of depends on what’s happening with the soil. But as we are saying, if you are using animals regeneratively, and you are healing that soil microbiome and allowing for those fungi to thrive, then you could logically assume that this will matter. And of course, the secondary compounds sometimes in animal products can rival that found in things like turnips and eggplant, when they are fed really diverse forages. So they are finding when they are on monocrop grass, one type of grass, it’s a different thing from many types of grass. They are just starting to kind of understand that nuance. But there are some interesting trials, too, which is what I’m trying to do with my dissertation: Does that matter for human health? Sure, we can count the nutrients. But what does it do? And so metabolomics is this new kind of emerging technology, where you can look at thousands of nutrients, rather than just a handful. And what they are finding is there’s dramatic differences in the nutrient content of when an animal feeds exclusively grass from diverse pastures versus grain, dramatic differences. One trial had kangaroo. You’re going to eat wild kangaroo that was fed grass, and cows raised in confinement. And then they measured the inflammatory action, or we always have a little bit of inflammatory response after a meal, but they wanted to see if it differed. And it did, there was far more inflammation when the cows were fed grain. And of course, this trial is confounded because it’s a kangaroo. And so van Vliet, that’s what I’m going to try and do is doing the cow to cow comparison. But what it looks like is, yes, there are very distinct changes, and they do appear, at least initially, to affect human health. And I think the more important takeaway, though, is of course they do, because we can’t separate the health of the planet from our health, right? The soil, we are only as healthy as our soil. And Franklin D. Roosevelt even said it: “A nation that destroys its soil, destroys itself.” And so when we are still supporting these processes and practices that degrade our soil, I think we are missing the point, even if there is an equivalent amount of nutrients.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Right, because some of that you just can’t measure anyway. I mean, that’s a problem in nutrition studies across the board. You are trying to measure the complexities of the interactions between nutrients in the human body, I mean, there’s a certain amount of that that just can’t be captured. And yet we know, just on the basis of common sense, that that’s true. The saying that’s coming to my mind as you are talking about this, is something I have seen online and heard other people talk about, you are what you eat, ate. So if you are eating ground beef, the quality of nutrients, and even just the quality of the product — so right now, we are talking about nutrient value, but a few minutes ago, you were talking about the problems of what’s added into conventionally farmed stuff, the antibiotics, whatever, so the quality is really going to differ, depending on how that animal was raised, what was done, the processes with that. And I just think that that’s something fun for people to really realize.

I’m curious, from a practical perspective, because I can see people wondering about this, and I know even for myself, it’s tricky when you are shopping for meat products, just like with everything now out there, there’s so much greenwashing, there’s all these different terms and labels, and I have parents at the clinic say to me all the time, “I don’t know, it seemed this was good because it said ‘All Natural’ and ‘Free Range’, and whatever. So just from your perspective, not only in your professional life, but also just as a mom feeding your family, are there some particular labels, some buzzwords? What are some things that people should be aware of when they are shopping for meat products?

Autumn Smith

Yes. Like you said, the market people realize that consumers want really high quality products. And so they do, they bring in some trickery, for sure. The first is “all natural”. I think there was a study, 59% of consumers are looking for this label, but it really means nothing. It means processed without artificial additives. And it’s like, well, but what are the animals eating? What were they given? Doesn’t say anything about that. So natural, you kind of want to ignore that. Free range and cage-free are two that I think most people are just kind of blown away about. But these animals are often raised in confinement, just like everything else. And the requirement is that there has to be a door, and sometimes, it doesn’t even have to be open, right? You need to have access, even if the animals never go out there. So it’s still practically just tens of thousands of birds. So what we want to look for is pasture-raised. This isn’t that that is better, but ideally, we know where it’s coming from, and I know that’s warm and fuzzy and not always practical, but when you can find that, that’s the best of the best. I also really hate the term “Humanely-raised” unless it’s actually third party certified. That’s the humane certifications. Because nobody’s really checking on that otherwise. If it’s not third party verified, there isn’t really a standard around that. And two more that bother me: One is “Made in America”, because you can actually just have the animal processed in America, and then it becomes a product of America.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Really!

Autumn Smith

Really. So yeah, the National Animals Association kind of raised an issue, and hopefully they will be changing that. But yeah, you can have an animal raised in New Zealand and flown over here. And then it can still be a product of America. So that’s obnoxious. And then “Grass-fed”. It’s not always a highly regulated term. And cows are always grass-fed for the first part of their lives. And then what happens in the finishing phase seems to matter, right? Are they going into a feedlot or are they staying on pastures? Are they using regenerative practices to restore soil health? So you want to look for something like American Grass-Fed Association, which is a third party that comes in and verifies every year what these people are doing, because there’s a lot of abysmal kind of quality control, unfortunately, in even our regulation of these laws, and I’m sad to say. My mom works for the government. I just think they are underfunded and they are overwhelmed and they are doing the best they can, but a lot of times, things fall through the cracks. And so those are some of the main ones to look out for. So for beef, I would look for 100% Grass-fed from The American Grass-Fed Association, if you can. And for eggs and chicken, we would look for pasture-raised, if you can. And then for pork, pastured pork is the best case scenario, even though it can be hard to find, but I have got a great source. And then when it comes to fish, you just want to do wild fish if possible.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Yeah, that’s great. So helpful to just clarify that for people, because it can get totally overwhelming. I think you made a really good point about the ideal case being that we know our local farmers, we can go and get great products from them. That is not accessible to everybody. Not everybody lives in areas — I happen to live in an area where there is more agriculture, there are more animal farms, we can know our farmers, we can get shares of animals that have been raised in the right way. But certainly lots of people don’t have access to that, and that really is one of the driving forces behind you starting Wild Pastures, right? Not only to support farmers and ranchers who are doing the right things, as far as how they are raising their animals, but also to make these types of regenerative quality animal products available to consumers, regardless of whether they have access locally.

Autumn Smith

Right. It was making me so angry because I was learning about these things from these farmers who were like “We are doing these great practices, but we don’t know how to market ourselves. We don’t even know how to get out there.” And from the people I was working with was a holistic nutritionist who said, “Yeah, this sounds great, but where do I find these products? And when I do, they are really expensive.” So we just thought, gosh, we cannot let this be an elitist thing that no one can access because it has really beautiful potential. So yeah, we just partnered with the farmers and said we will do the marketing, we will find your people if you can keep your prices really low for us. And we have done a number of things to do that. But yeah, it was just born out of us wanting everybody to be able to afford the kind of meat that I think would make them the healthiest versions of themselves, and the planet the healthiest version of itself, and just help us get where we need to go.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Well, and it’s awesome, because one of the biggest obstacles for any of us, but particularly those of us, feeding a family is the time and convenience obstacle, right? And you totally address that with Wild Pastures. I’m a huge fan. So I want you to explain to people how Wild Pastures works.

Autumn Smith

Yeah, you are right, it is the convenience piece, because what we do is basically we partner with the farmers, you get online, you tell us what you want in your box every month, every other month, or every third month, and it just comes to your doorstep. There it is. 15 pounds, 25 pounds, whatever it is you need to do, and it’s not just cuts of meat. It can be that, but you also get taco meat, there’s the best breakfast sausage ever, bratwurst, all different kinds of steaks, and pork steaks, and pork chops, and chicken, and chicken wings. You can get all of the things, but there’s also something in there for people who don’t like to spend a lot of time or aren’t really adept in the kitchen at cooking animal products, that you can just put on the grill and create a beautiful taco or I always do eggs and a sausage. So that’s how it works. We are thinking of the environment and human health in every aspect of our business. We are doing local deliveries, compostable packaging, I mean, we are using solar powered facilities, we are getting electric vehicles. I mean, it’s really a mission-based company at its core. And the reason we founded it was because we saw all these other boxes, a lot of other meat box companies, but a lot of them were outsourcing. They were getting it from other countries. And we thought, but what about America? What about our soil? What about our citizens? And we just wanted to create a community of farmers who could rehabilitate our soil as well. And again, if everything’s flying and being transported, that’s again not a great solution for the planet, and it takes away from our food sovereignty.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Absolutely. And I have been aware of a couple other companies out there, have used some of them. When I became more educated and aware of what you were doing with Wild Pastures, it was like, “Well, this is just an obvious thing.” And as a family, we have been so thrilled. I mean, the customization is great, because again, families are different, kids are different. What you are eating is different. And to be able to customize based on what you are actually going to cook, what your family or you are actually going to eat, it’s awesome. And I’m so impressed with really, start to finish, is how conscientious you are about everything from the packaging to how it’s delivered. So I’m just a huge fan. And I really wanted to bring this into the awareness of my listeners here, because so many of you are so passionate about trying to understand these things and make the best choices possible for your children, for yourselves, for your families. And it’s tricky to know how to do that, and it’s time consuming. And so when I find options that cut through all of that and make it simple and less time consuming for us to make those good choices, I want you to know about them. So Autumn, I’m so appreciative of you, not only sharing all of the knowledge and the science that you have, and I’m so excited that you are doing your dissertation. This is amazing, that’s going to be a huge gift to the world, the study that you are doing there, but also for your passion around creating companies that make this doable for all of us. It’s just so awesome. Let’s share with people, because you have been very generous with an offer here for all of my listeners, so talk to them about how they can get started with this.

Autumn Smith

Yeah, and I just wanted to share one last thing that I forgot to mention that I think is really important. So recent analysis has kind of broken down how many pounds of carbon are emitted per type of animal products. Beef is usually 20-33 kilograms per pound, and pork is 9 and chicken is 6, and even Beyond Meat, these plant-based burgers, 4, and soy is 2. And in one particular study that happened in Georgia, you have to make these qualifications of course, regeneratively-raised beef didn’t only not emit it, it sequestered it. I mean, it did emit carbon and certain elements, but it was an overall net positive for the environment, even more so than plants, and so I just think that it’s just really important to know that, because I know you are getting this big push about plant-based meat too. So what you can do today is 20% off for life, and $15 off your first box for the next four days. We are offering that through the link that you are going to provide in your show notes. But again, I understand anyone’s hesitation but I think this can help us bridge the worlds of the people who really care and are hesitant, and want to make sure animals are treated well and involved in a system that is actually doing good. So yeah, just know, I know your heart, I understand you. I’m not trying to tell you what to do. Just providing options for if you want to take that step.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

It’s awesome. And such a great offer, the 20% off for life and then $15 off your first box. That’s amazing. So go to the website, the link in the show notes, and take a look at that. Read more about it. You’ve got a lot of information on your site too. Read more about what they are doing, understand the process, give it a try. Autumn, thank you so much, again, for your passion around this, all of the hard work that you and your husband, and your brother-in-law, and your team are doing. we are all better for it. And thanks also for coming back on the show and spending time with us today.

Autumn Smith

I love you and everything you are doing, so it’s just an honor. So thank you for letting me come on your show.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

And thanks, as always, to all of you for being here and for listening. We will catch you back here next time.