Forest Bathing Benefits For The Whole Family

Episode Transcript

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
Hi everyone, welcome to the show, I am Dr. Nicole, and on today’s episode, we’re talking about the power of nature as a healing modality. We all know that getting outside is healthy and beneficial, but do we really understand how time and nature benefit our brain and body, and why it’s not just a nice-to-do, but really a need-to-do for us and our kids. I’m excited to devote our show today to this important topic, especially during this time of COVID, where I’m finding professionally and personally that kids are cooped up indoors more often than may even be typical. Although we know that getting outside can be an issue for kids in general, so this is a really important thing for us to be discussing.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller is here to talk to us about nature as big medicine. Let me tell you a bit about her. She is an OB-Gyn and Integrative Medicine physician who resides in Cedar Falls, Iowa. She is board certified by the American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology and the American Board of Integrative Medicine. She holds additional certification in herbal medicine and is a certified forest therapy guide. She served as medical director for the Association of Nature and Forest Therapy, and currently is medical advisor for AllTrails. She is the award-winning author of The Outdoor Adventurer’s Guide to Forest Bathing and a Friend Like John: Understanding Autism. She speaks nationally and internationally about autism, integrative medicine, and nature therapy. Suzanne and her husband Joe are avid outdoor enthusiasts and lead workshops combining outdoor adventure and the mindful practice of forest bathing. Suzanne, welcome to the show.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Thank you, Nicole. It’s great to be here!

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
This is such a unique and compelling and fascinating topic. I am so excited to have you here and I know that already I’ve said some terms that some listeners are like, “Wait, what did she say? Forest bathing?” So I’m excited to delve into this, but you have such an interesting background. Traditionally trained physician now doing forest bathing workshops. So I really would like to start by having you talk about how it is that a conventional OB-Gyn physician sort of transitioned into an integrative physician, an herbalist, a forest therapy guide, a doctor who prescribes nature. Tell us how that path came about?

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
I would be happy to. It’s actually a fairly long story, but I will distill the important points. I always say that my name is as complicated as my journey, and really that is the way it’s gone. But who doesn’t have a complicated journey? That’s what it’s all about. So I guess the point is to learn from our journey and do what we can. So I started my practice and career as an OB-Gyn, traditional pathway, doing all the school, one after another, and started practicing in the early 2000s. Had a couple of kids, discovered that my son had autism, a little bit before he turned 3. And of course, that has been a major factor in the trajectory of my life really going forward. So we dealt with his condition and obviously continue to, he’ll be 20 in a couple of weeks. Time flies.

Moving forward, my husband was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer in 2008 and he was not a smoker, but that was one of those major blows in life. So it was some of those questions, especially that started my questions, asking questions about conventional medicine and what we could do to support people with conditions such as autism and lung cancer and all of these things. Also, I had patients who were asking me questions about, for example herbal remedies for their menopausal symptoms and things like that. And I just felt like there must be more to healing than conventional medicine, than pharmaceutical drugs and surgery. And really, those were the only tools I had in my toolbox and I felt this gnawing sense that there was more, but I had no idea how to access it. It wasn’t part of my medical training.

So fast forward a little bit, 2010, I heard Dr. Andrew Weil speak at a conference. And that was one of my first Aha moments that there really was something more. People who have known me for decades, many people find it kind of funny that I would be at the place I’m at now, thinking back to how conventionally-minded I was 20 years ago or 25-30 years ago. So really, that’s been something that I think is so important, that when we learn something different that we are open-minded enough to consider the merits of these different things, and especially one thing that drew me to integrative medicine was that it is evidence-based. Everything that we study and learn about has science to support its use, and it’s not just somebody’s idea about something that might be a health remedy.

So that appealed to me because I always say I was a scientist first and a conventional doctor first and I don’t like to throw science out. So after learning about the fellowship in integrative medicine with Dr. Weil at the University of Arizona, I embarked on that path. With my husband’s illness, I deferred for a while, but ultimately then, started the fellowship in 2012 and completed it in January of 2014. So that was when my eyes were open to all of these other modalities. And honestly, the simple things that we need for our health, things like nutrition and exercise and stress management. These obvious things that we actually get very little teaching about and training about in medical school and residency.

Then my eyes were open to environmental toxins, which I know you just had my good friend, Aly Cohen on the program. Her new book is so exciting, Non-toxic, talking about these kinds of things and that was something too that I had questions about: What are we doing in our environment that’s contributing to things like autism and lung cancer that I maybe didn’t know about from my conventional background. So again, I could go on and on and on, but these are some of the things that made me really start to look at things differently and want to know more. Of course, once I got into integrative medicine, I was fascinated with herbal medicine. I then studied for two more years with Dr. Tieraona Low Dog, who was one of the teachers in our program, and then discovered this notion of forest bathing in 2014, and it was after my husband passed away in 2012 that I was reeling and trying to figure out what to do with my life and my grief and all of that.

I found myself more and more drawn to being outdoors, especially at first, things like trail running and mountain biking and adventuresome kinds of things, adrenaline rush kinds of things. I felt like I needed that for my personal healing. But then at some point, as you well know, I recognized the need for balance. And I’ve been a practitioner of yoga for many, many years. So I had that kind of mind-body concept. So although I was trying to balance yoga and meditation with all my adventure pursuits, as I mentioned, I discovered this whole concept of forest bathing and thought, “Wow, this is something. There is something here that really appeals to me. I started exploring it with some patients and participants and workshops and then decided to become certified as a forest therapy guide.

So I’ve done that, did serve as the medical director for the association for nature and forest therapy, which is an international organization that certifies forest therapy guides. We can talk more about what forest bathing is in just a second, but yeah, that’s kind of how I got here and since that time, really over the past year or two, I’ve really gotten even further into the study of what it is in nature that contributes to our health. I’ve done a lot of public speaking, as you mentioned, writing, I really do feel called to teach about that and work in that regard. Yeah, so I’ll stop with that!

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
I always find it so interesting, I say this on so many episodes with the guests that come on, just the intersection of our personal and professional lives and how things happen that may seem really negative or difficult or challenging at the time in our personal lives drives the focus of our career in a different direction and allow us to impact people in ways that we never anticipated. So it never ceases to amaze me how interesting the tapestry of our stories are and how they’re woven together.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Yeah, thank you. And I think that goes for all of your listeners too, I’m sure. We all have these terrible experiences in life that we think we’re never going to recover from, and yet, someone once said, “If you think of every good thing that’s happened, it was probably precipitated by some bad thing or negative thing or terrible thing that you had to go through. So it’s true. I think we have to be able to be pliable and flow with what happens in life and learn from the lessons. That maybe for some reason were there for us.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
Well, it’s interesting thinking about that because so many parents both in the clinic and in my online community have said over the years that their child being diagnosed with a neurodevelopmental issue, a mental health issues, something really was the impetus for change as a family that led them in a much better direction and led other family members to recognize some really problematic things going on with them that they were able to impact. So certainly, looking for those positives and those silver linings. So many things I want to ask you based on what you mentioned with your history and what you’ve been researching and learning about. But let’s go back to this idea of forest bathing, because I know this may be a new term for people and they’re wondering, “Tell me what that is!” What is forest bathing? Why is it helpful? How is it done? Give us all the details.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Well, first of all, you do get to keep your clothes on in forest bathing. When I first started offering forest bathing walks back in 2015-2016, yes, I had a lot of questions. I did this through a retreat center and conservation/nature centers around. So they would publicize these things, and people would always call and ask all these questions about “What. What is this?” So yes, clothing is not optional. Forest bathing is translated from the Japanese shinrin-yoku, and that term is not as ancient as one might think, but it was coined in the early 80s by some doctors in Japan who recognized that their patients were experiencing significant mental health problems, high incidents of depressions and anxiety, and terribly high rates of suicide. And they wondered if the chaos of living in the city, the lights and sounds, and stressful life of living in Tokyo was contributing to this mental health crisis. So these doctors started taking their patients on excursions out into the forest, about an hour outside of the city. They did this intentionally and they studied things while they were doing it. It wasn’t just like, “Okay, we’re going a field trip, have fun, enjoy!” They took their patients out with the intention of guiding them to take nature in in a mindful way through the various senses, in a very quiet, solemn, contemplative way, with the goal of allowing people to really get out of that monkey mind stressful state and into more of a deeper, almost meditative dreamlike state. We refer to that state in forest bathing as a liminal state.
Similar to a dream, where things happen, things happen to our subconscious when we allow ourselves to go to that place. So as they took people out into nature in this way, they did some studies on them of course to see if this was impacting then in any way, and they would give them mental health questionnaires that they would do before and after these excursions, and they found, consistently, that people reported improvements in these various parameters of mental health: Feelings of anxiety, feelings of depression, feelings of self-esteem and all of these different things, and found that consistently, these parameters were all improved after this forest bathing experience. They also took more objective data on things such as blood pressure, pulse, and something called heart rate variability, which looks at how stressed we are. It looks at our sympathetic and our parasympathetic tone, which I think is something that’s very, very fascinating. Sympathetic tone is that fight or flight response, as opposed to the parasympathetic tone, which is more of a rest and digest, rest and relaxation tone. So they looked at all of these things with people before and after forest bathing and found that they were improved as well. Then even further, they’ve looked at things like hormone levels in their participants’ saliva. Things like salivary cortisol and salivary alpha-amylase. Those levels they have found improved after time spent in nature in this quiet way. So it’s really interesting. I think the research out of Japan from this practice has been very compelling.
Another interesting fact about their research that I think pertains to this time of a pandemic, when everybody is looking for things to strengthen the immune system, is doctors found that after a forest bathing excursion — and the study that they have published is a 3-day, 2-night excursion. So that’s more than a walk that I typically would do that would take place over 2 or 3 hours. But still, it would not be unlike a weekend camping trip or something. But they found that in coming in contact with chemicals that are emitted from the trees, chemicals known as phytoncides, that people had increased levels of natural killer cells in the body after forest bathing. And natural killer cells, or NK cells are cells that sweep through the body and gobble up viruses and bacteria and even cancer cells as they’re developing. So they found that these NK cells were elevated in both number and level of activity after these excursions of forest bathing. They found that that was true immediately after the experience, and then found that it was true 7 days out and even 30 days out!
So to me that is outstanding, that spending a weekend in the forest and just inhaling these chemicals and the essential oils from trees, particularly evergreen trees, that you would have that kind of health benefit and boost to your immune system, and perhaps even fight cancer. I mean, who knew!

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
It’s amazing. And this is the science that I think is so important. In the intro to the show, I said we tend to think of it as a nice-to-do, like “Oh yeah, we should do that.” But we don’t really understand why it’s so valuable and so important. And I think over time, as we have become more focused on spending more time indoors, and now, especially more than ever before, in front of screens. We already know that this generation of kids is the most sedentary than ever before in history. And they’re not being sedentary sitting out in nature. They’re being sedentary on their couches, their bed, their floor, whatever, with devices. And now the pandemic has really escalated that even more. It’s like we’re losing all of the benefits that come to us physically and mentally of being in nature. It’s sort of a slippery slope. I don’t think anyone intended for it to happen, but from the time that you and I were kids and the amount of time that we spent outside to now, our children, it’s really shifted, hasn’t it?

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Absolutely, yeah. It’s been an insidious occurrence, this technology thing. First it was TV and now it’s the devices that we’re all attached to, and right. My daughter right now is doing school via technology. I think now, more than ever before, it’s important to acknowledge the critical importance of being outdoors, and It’s not just a nice thing. There really are health benefits to being outside.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
And get into that a little bit more, in terms of the benefit on mental health and physical health, and you touched on some of that. We were talking about the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, which is so concisely explained, that sympathetic, that more fight or flight, that worked up, that edgy kind of anxious tone. Then that parasympathetic, more relaxed, calm, able to take things in. It make me think about so many of kids, especially kids who have autism, more severe, ADHD, more significant mental health kinds of issues, certainly kids with anxiety and how much of the time, I can tell even in the clinic or just out in public, I look at kids and I can visibly see them in this sympathetic nervous system overdrive. You can just see the tension in their body, in their face, the hyper-vigilance. That’s so damaging on so many levels for our kids physically as well as mentally, right?

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Absolutely. It’s not good for our brains to be constantly frazzled. It’s such a vicious cycle. I talk about this a lot, also with patients. That if you’re constantly in that state of chaos and anxiety and stress, that means you’re not sleeping well at night. If you’re not sleeping well at night, your brain can not cleanse the toxins that are floating around. You can’t possibly think well, you can’t possibly have a day the next day that’s productive. It just is this constant vicious cycle, as with all the things that I’m sure you and I talk about with patients, with nutrition and things. My son, as I mentioned, is almost 20 and has autism. He was in a university certificate program for job preparedness and things. This year, he’s taking a gap year because of COVID and so he is home again. This is stressful. Everything about it is stressful, and so I can see when it’s rising. I’ll say, “Maybe you should. Go take a walk. And he has this little circuit that he does daily, and you can tell how stressed and how overworked his mind is by how long his walk ends up being.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
Yeah, absolutely! That’s a great barometer for that!

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Right! But he’s able to express that and quantify that and connect that that’s what he needs to do when he feels that way. And I’m just so thankful that even though there are so many things he’s missing out on right now, that’s something he can access any day, any time, and it’s free. And it’s one of the best things he could possibly do for himself.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
I love that you mentioned that because I think this is a strategy or a tool that we can all apply with our kids, no matter their age, no matter the severity of their disability or their developmental level, their functioning level — everybody can get outdoors and benefit from that. Even if they don’t have great motor skills and aren’t able to walk outside, just being outside. This is something that we can apply to everybody.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Yes. I couldn’t agree more. That’s such an important point right now. Because of COVID and in terms of people who might have either intellectual disabilities or mobility issues or whatever it is, that if you can’t get out and take a walk or you can’t get out to the woods and forest bathe, can you derive benefits from nature in close-to-home methods? And that’s something I’ve been exploring personally quite a bit during COVID, it’s this idea of nearby nature. And I think there is a ton to be said for just that. As I’m talking to you, I’m sitting on my deck because it’s still fortunately nice enough outside to do so, but where I’m sitting, I have some trees that are in my yard and some tomato plants that are getting tired, and some potted plants. Some things like that that I can gaze at. And even if that was all I had, there is tremendous benefit in being able to do that. We have this practice in forest bathing called Sit Spot.
And Sit Spot is this idea of taking just 20 minutes to sit outdoors and just notice what you notice. If I could give one prescription to everybody, universally, regardless of your age or your ability level or your health, it would be to take a 20 minute Sit Spot. And you can do this in the most beautiful places: You can do it in a national park if you have access to that. You can do it in a local park, you can do in your backyard, you can do it on a balcony with a potted plant. You can do it looking out your window. You can do it on a sidewalk with a dandelion, you can do it in your house with a potted houseplant. And I have done it with all of these different things. It works! I’m always really, really amazed that I could have an experience that improves my health, and I have done my own little experiments, checked my heart rate or my heart rate variability, or just kind of mentally scanned or done a little body scan before and after sitting with a potted plant for 20 minutes, and I noticed that I feel better.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
So great that there really aren’t barriers to this. Probably, when people originally think, like forest bathing, you know, that sounds like planning this trip, just some big national park, right — you’re saying you can do it with a potted plant. And I would assume from what you’re talking about with a child who maybe is developmentally younger or isn’t used to engaging in mindful, quieter activities, that maybe we would start with 60 seconds of sitting in the yard, and taking in nature, and we could work up, right?

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Absolutely, and I think that certainly, this could be adapted to any level of attention span. You know, there is a study in 2018 that looked at college students separating themselves from their devices, being outside in nature for 5 minutes, and found that 5 minutes of time disconnected from their devices improved nearly all parameters of mental health. Just 5 minutes. So then the researchers decided to increase the length of time in that study to 15 minutes to see if there are better gains if you were sitting out there longer, and they found that there really was no improvement when adding 10 more minutes. So 5 minutes. We all have 5 minutes. I guarantee almost all of your listeners probably spend at least 5 minutes messing around on their devices or social media in a day. So I’m all about the no-excuses.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
I think that’s great, because we, as humans, we’re very good at coming up with reasons why we can’t do things, and you’re basically dismantling all of those from the start and saying, “Look, the research shows even 5 minutes is helpful.” So that makes me think about something I have been recommending and preaching about so much in the last 6 months with the online learning… which is that kids need to be taking breaks, and I was just talking to a teen yesterday, an 11th grader, and saying, “Look, when your 15-minute lecture class is done, you need to close the computer, put the phone away and go outside for 5 minutes and just be there, get the fresh air, move around a little.” So to hear you saying that the actually that 5 minutes can have some really positive effects, that’s so important for parents to tune into.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Exactly. A 5-minute break can do wonders for just resetting your brain and your body and your wellbeing. Just your mental health, if nothing else.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
It’s interesting because for so many years, we’re blessed, here at our clinic we have quite a large property, we have nature outside, so I have the opportunity to take kids and adults I work with outside. Some days I’ll just tell, somebody will come in, and if the weather is decent and we’re not going to get soaked or frozen during our session, I’ll say, “Let’s go sit on the deck for just a little bit.” Or “Let’s walk around the yard and not even talk.” Especially kids coming in totally fried from the school day, it’s like they have the 4pm appointment slot, which is the worst for a kid, right? It’s like let’s just spend 5-10 minutes at the start of our appointment. We’re just not even going to talk, we’re just going to walk around the yard together or we’re just going to plunk down and sit down right in the grass together. It has always intuitively struck me that that’s effective for helping kids to reset. So it’s helpful to hear what you’re talking about and connecting the research to that.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Yeah, that’s fantastic. I’ve done the same. For years, I’ve taken patients outside and walked or talked. It’s very helpful. It’s great to hear that you’re doing that.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
Yeah. And I think the other piece that’s striking about this is this is something that families can do together and see benefits. It’s simple. You and your child can go out and take a walk, you both can have the benefits. Especially as parents, more than ever, we can benefit from these physiological and mental health improvements that you’re talking about with us making the time to be outside.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
That’s right, get outside, go for a walk, go to a playground, whatever it is, everyone is going to have benefits from it. I quote one particular study a lot, especially when it comes to talking about kids. And that was a study that found that spending an hour in nature improves memory and attention span by 20%. The benefits are there even if they didn’t enjoy it.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
Mmmm! That’s a really good one!

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Isn’t that the best? I was thinking about that study before we started today, thinking “I need to make sure to mention that!” Because your audience of all the people that I talk to can resonate with that. The idea that — my husband and I often drag our kids. We have 5 teenagers between us so you can imagine how sometimes they don’t love the things we make them do, usually outdoors. I quote that constantly. It turns out that you’re getting benefits whether you like it or not!.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
That is really important to know because a lot of parents can say “My kid doesn’t like to be outside” or it’s a hassle. It doesn’t matter!

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
It’s no different than eating your peas.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
You don’t have to like it. Yes! Right! I love that. One of the things that came to my mind when you said they don’t have to like it is the issue of when the weather starts to [inaudible 0:28:59.5]. So you and I both live in the midwest, we were talking before we started the interview about being in the last stretch of good weather, and then we are going to embark on our 6 month period of time where it’s anywhere from chilly to downright freezing. We get snow, it’s grayer. Suggestions, tips, thoughts about still the importance of getting kids outside when the weather is not ideal?

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Yes. I mean definitely. My husband and I often will say there is no bad weather, only poor clothing choices. So if you live in the midwest, you probably have to invest in some good clothing. That’s really the bottom line. It doesn’t have to be expensive clothing, but it has to be warm enough and dry enough that you can be outside. I think that that is one of the most important things. I know it saves me in the winter to be able to get outside, and I have to be physically active and I have to get outdoors or I really fall apart, regardless of the weather. So we do everything we can during the winter. We hike, we snowshoe, we cross-country ski, we ride our fat bikes in the snow, and we just do it. I think that that is one of the most important things that children today can be allowed and encouraged to do. And you and I both said that as children, we were sent out to play. I was bundled up in my snowsuit and sent out to play. I was stuck in my rain jacket and rain boots and umbrella and told to go play. I think kids do so much less of that and it’s one of the most important things that they can do, even if it’s 20 minutes.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
Yeah, and I just think for parents to hear that, that the weather doesn’t have to be ideal, and kids might squawk about it, but they do get into the habit of “Okay, I have to do this.” And some of you have kids who want to go out no matter what the weather, and you may be holding back like “Oh, I don’t really want to go out with you” or whatever, but if your child is indicating that they need to do this, that they want to do this, we need to support that because I find so often, especially our kids, especially with autism or other neurodevelopmental issues, they intuitively know what’s good for them and what they need. Those kids who are constantly clamoring to get outside, they’re telling us, “My body needs this, my brain needs to be in nature right now.”

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
That’s very interesting. Most definitely. I thought I had a thought and now it just escaped me, so go on!

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
I love what you were saying earlier about your son now at age 20, because these habits have been built, he’s able to really use that. First of all, he’s developed self-awareness about how it helps him, and so the more worked up I am, the longer a walk I take. What an amazing and powerful gift to give our kids, whether they have autism or another issue or not, by the time they grow into adulthood, to have that awareness, and to go “I can use this as a tool.” I just think that’s a profound gift to give them.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
I think so too, and I’ve worked on that with a number of different things with him over the years. I often say I’m guessing he’s one of the only kids who has ever had yoga breathing written into his IEP because I made my poor child do yoga when he was a kid, and it was very good for self-regulation. I’ve constantly said “Eating these vegetables is good for your brain and they’re good for your health.” And he’ll still say those things to this day. So those things become ingrained in our kids when we equate positive behaviors with healthy outcomes.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
Yeah, and I think that’s just so important to recognize that, the earlier we can start, the more that builds, but even no matter what the age of your child, if you’re parenting a young adult child right now, work on this now. Open your eyes to the fact that this can be a tool, and I think that’s one of the pieces there, especially if you have a child who is resistive, we need to be a model and do it with. At least that’s what I find initially, if you have a child who is resistive to it, we need to go first. They need to see us getting outside and doing it with them, as opposed to just saying “You should go do this.”

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Absolutely. I’ve always felt that it was important to lead by example, and I never suggest to my patients or my kids that they do something that I don’t do and believe is important. So that’s why I spent time — Oh, I know what I was going to say before when I forgot: Forest bathing with people or doing “Walk With the Doc” with my patients or teaching cooking classes and things, what I was going to say before is on the subject of inclement weather, some of the most profound experience I’ve had with people when I’ve taken them out on guided forest bathing walks are when the weather has been drizzly or some kind of not perfect weather, to the point where people will have said, “Oh, I thought I maybe would cancel or not come because it was drizzling a little/it was colder than I wanted” or whatever.
And then afterward, they’ll say “That was absolutely magical!” And I’ve had people come up to me even recently from a walk my husband and I did a couple of years ago, where it poured for the entire two and a half hours. We thought it was going to rain a little in the beginning, so we proceeded. And then it poured for two and a half hours. And after that, people said, “That was actually very empowering. I didn’t realize that I can be outside in the rain, that I could enjoy myself in the rain, that it could feel so good to just be out in the rain. Now I go out in the rain all the time, it doesn’t stop me from going for a walk or going for a run.” It just is. So it was really something and that was kind of an eye-opener for me too. Wow! Because again, we go outdoors in crazy weather all the time, but how rare that is for a lot of people.”

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
That’s beautiful, I love that. That made me think with COVID and everything that’s going on, you had mentioned to me before the interview, there is some virtual forest bathing, can you talk a little bit about that? Things that people might be able to find online?

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Yeah, there are! There are virtual forest bathing walks, if you can believe that. People can go to my website for links, which is integrativeinitiative.com, there’s the Association of Nature and Forest, there are a few websites where people can find virtual tours, virtual guided walks. all the time. I’ve put some on social media that I’ve done. I’m working on filming some little 5 minute snippets of forest bathing that we’re going to start offering on social media. So these things are out there, where you can even be indoors and potentially experience all of this.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
That’s great, especially as we’ve all had to get creative during this time, especially of how to make therapeutic experiences accessible to people with everything that’s going on. So I love that, that’s great. As a wrapping up here, I want you to tell people the name of your website again because you’ve got so many great resources there, and also you’ve got a couple of books too.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Thank you! So again, my website is integrativeintitative.com, and I do have some blogs on there. There’s a link to a recent webinar that I just co-created with some other nature-minded physicians and researchers that anyone can watch if you felt like some of the science really gets your juices flowing, it is chock full of the science of nature and health. it’s for anyone to watch, it’s free, there is one hour of continuing medical education credit available for medical and healthcare providers if that’s of interest, and that’s all located on my website. On social media, Facebook, I’m Integrative Initiative, and on Instagram and Twitter I’m @docsuzy.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
And great stuff on there, I’ve enjoyed taking a look at what you have on social media and on your website. And also your book, The Outdoor Adventurer’s Guide to Forest Bathing.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
Thank you, yeah. So that was a fun experience. It’s published by Falcon Guides and came out last year in 2019. So it combines outdoor adventure, so trail running, hiking, mountain biking, cross-country skiing, climbing, paddling with these elements of forest bathing. And there are invitations for people to actually go through as they’re out in nature. It can either be done by reading it, or there’s an audiobook version as well. I incorporated quite a bit of this science of nature into it as well, did some interviews with elite athletes and the ways that they incorporate nature into their practice, and then also incorporate some herbal medicine into it because we typically end our forest bathing walks with a tea ceremony in Japanese fashion, which aligns with my love of herbal medicine. So we try to use a plant that’s native to the area and incorporate it into a tea, and I find that people really love to learn this, that you could use a dandelion, for example, something that probably everybody can recognize, and that there are medicinal properties to a dandelion, and you can make a tea out of it that actually tastes good. So yes, all of these things are incorporated in the book. And also the autism book!

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
Yes, just to comment on that because I know many of our listeners, if they have a child with autism would want to know about that.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
That book, I published in 2011, I self-published that through Author House, it’s called A Friend Like John: Understanding Autism. And I created it because every year from the time that John was in kindergarten, my son, I would go to his class and we would talk about autism. I wanted us to be very transparent, I just wanted the kids to have the opportunity to ask me questions about why John did some of the things he did. And then we talked a lot about ways that John was also just like them. It always felt like such a positive thing where — He started learning to play the trombone when he was 7, for example. And the other kids were blown away when they discovered this. So we could kind of showcase some of his strengths and talk about, “Well, you don’t like it when somebody screams in your ear, right? So maybe these loud sounds are troublesome to John in the same way that they might bother you.” So the book kind of evolved from that, just this idea of looking at similarities and differences and being able to talk about it freely.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
It’s great. I had seen that book and knew about that book before I knew who you were, so putting the two together is wonderful. I really encourage people — now those are both available on your website? Or on Amazon?

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
They’re both available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and three of the publishing companies, so they’re just out there.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
I highly encourage people to check those out. If you were to leave parents with one simple takeaway, something that they can start doing right away based on the conversations today, what would it be?

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
It’s just to take the time, know that it is the best thing you can do for yourself and also for your children to take even 5 minutes, 20 minutes if you can to just take some time disconnected from devices outdoors, whether it’s in your own backyard or at a park or anywhere that there’s just a little bit of nature, just know that it really is good for you. Doctor’s orders.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
I love it. Fantastic. Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller, thank you so much for being with us today. I really enjoyed this conversation, I know our listeners did too and took so much from it, so that you so much for being here.

Dr. Suzanne Bartlett Hackenmiller:
That’s fantastic. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens:
And thanks to all of you for listening, we will catch you back here again next week for our next episode of The Better Behavior Show.