The Connections Between Sensory Processing, Relationships, and Behavior

Episode Transcript

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Hi everyone. Welcome to the show. I’m Dr. Nicole, and I’m really excited to share today’s episode with you. We are going to be talking about the role of occupational therapy in helping us understand behavior and better support our children. I’ve been working with OT’s since I first started in my teaching career back over 25 years ago, and can honestly say that a great occupational therapist brings an immeasurable amount of knowledge, skill, and relationship to the table, in terms of understanding and meeting kids’ needs. Over the years, occupational therapy in the pediatric realm, at least, has become known not only for supporting development and skill acquisition for kids in their everyday life functioning, but also for supporting sensory processing and integration, which is key for so many kids. And now we are seeing another shift in some OT’s working with kids being at the forefront of helping change the paradigm around how we understand and support child behavior and adult child relationships. And one of the OT’s who’s passionate about doing that is Maggie Viers, and I’m so happy to have her on the show today. Let me tell you a little bit about her.

Maggie is an Occupational Therapist at Thriving Littles. She guides parents undergoing their own evolution by supporting the daily interactions outside and inside of those difficult moments with their kids. She is a mom of four sensitive and spirited kids, all under the age of six. Boy do I get that and feel that. And she’s passionate about shifting the paradigm of the way that we view behavior. Maggie is a Korean adoptee and currently resides in Houston, Texas. She’s been an OT for 12 years and has a wonderful Instagram account for parents and professionals. we will share the details of that with you at the end. Welcome to the show, Maggie, it’s so great to have you here!

Maggie Viers 

Thank you so much, Dr. Nicole. I am so honored to be here and to speak with you. I’m such a fan of your work. So thank you.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Thank you, and we connected on Instagram, and I was like, “Oh, I need to get to know her better. This stuff is so good.” And particularly because your occupational therapist is talking about this, and I love seeing this newer way of understanding behavior and nervous system regulation and parent-child interaction seeping into all of the different disciplines, and so I just love that. I think let’s frame our discussion for our listeners around you starting by sharing your story about how you came to, number one, be in the field of occupational therapy in the first place — because I find most people have interesting stories about that, but then also what led to this shift or this focus on the relational, the nervous system regulation, just kind of share your story with us.

Maggie Viers 

Yeah, so I actually got into OT, I was contemplating occupational therapy, I was contemplating nursing, I’ve always had this love and passion for understanding people and psychology and mental health. So that’s really what got me into the field of OT, and I practiced for about 12 years and just adult rehabilitation, working with people with brain injuries and spinal cord injuries. So I have this nervous system understanding, this neuroscience background. And it wasn’t until I had my kids — I think a lot of people can probably relate to this, once we become mothers, there’s this shift, there’s this change that happens. And for me, my kids were holding up this mirror to the things that I needed to heal. And so, I kind of went into this deep dive into my own childhood experiences, my own trauma from my adoption and other things in my life that have happened, and started to make sense of all of those experiences and how it was affecting my ability to function in my daily life, and to be the parent that I really wanted to be. And so I think I was finding myself stuck in this vicious cycle of yelling, doing these same patterns that seemed very familiar, but I couldn’t put my finger on it, and then being stuck in this shame and guilt cycle. And so it wasn’t really until I dove into my own re-parenting work and understanding my own nervous system at a motherhood level, that I really was able to give myself compassion and my children compassion. And once I dove into this work, I knew that I could not do anything else for the rest of my life, and I connected with Katie on Instagram at Thriving Littles, and we started working together and it’s been wonderful.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I love what you said about how you had your own children and realized that they were mirrors for your own stuff. That’s so powerful and it’s so true, whether somebody thinks that that’s true or not, or whether it’s ever occurred to them, it’s so true. I have often said that being a parent, having children is by far the most intensive and productive personal development work that we can do if we let it, right? Because you are right, they are mirrors for us. And so I’d love to have you share a little bit more of what you mean by that. Was there an aha moment? Or was there something that happened for you, where you were like, “Oh, actually, this is about me.”

Maggie Viers 

Yes. So I was picking up on these patterns with my kids. I was picking up on these, I guess we call them triggers in our field, where I was constantly becoming activated. I was constantly eliciting this visceral reaction in my body. Cognitively, I knew, “Okay, they are a kid. They are going to not listen sometimes”, but viscerally in my body, there was a reaction that was coming up that was resisting that. And so I was taking note of these patterns that I was noticing with my kids, the behaviors that were really starting to irritate me and activate me on a daily basis, and really getting curious about what that meant for me. What was this bringing up in me? And there was so much. It was bringing up so much in me, and before, I had no idea that my child’s behavior had anything to do with me. And often our kids’ behavior, and our kids’ reactions and emotions are this portal, our triggers are kind of this portal to understanding where we didn’t have the space to have these emotions, where we didn’t have the safe space to express these very human reactions in our own childhood.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I love that. And I think that level of awareness is so key, and it’s really what’s lacking. And it’s not parents’ fault, right? I’m thinking about you, I’m thinking about me. It’s similar. I had four children in six years, you had four children in six. It’s a lot. It’s just a lot. And I want to say to all the moms and dads listening, whether you have 1 or 10, or whatever, it’s a lot the day to day of it. And most of us have not received any sort of information or training or support around our own experience of our kids stuff. And so our kids start doing things — And this applies to all kids, whether they are diagnosed with challenges or not, this is all kids. They start doing things, and so much when kids start doing things, whether it’s tantruming or talking back, or refusing to go to bed at night, or whatever it is, traditionally, the focus has been on the child, right? What’s wrong with the kid? This is a kid issue, and we need to get the kid to do something, and what you are talking about here, and what we are really shifting to in all of our fields, whether it’s psychology, occupational therapy, speech therapy, whatever, is shifting towards this understanding that when kids are behaving in a certain way, when they are acting out, when they are doing these things, that’s an indication of things in the system that are probably problematic, right? Yes, sometimes there are specific things we need to address and deal with on the kid’s side of the equation. But the kid is not the entire equation, right? And I think that’s such a big shift in the field of working with children in general over the last several years, really, from viewing it as this problem is in the child and this is something that needs to be fixed or made different for the kid, and recognizing that, “Oh, the kid is just one piece of this picture.”

Maggie Viers 

Absolutely, yes. I think for so long, we have been in this behaviorist kind of paradigm where we see a behavior, shut it down, we see a behavior not comfortable for me, shut it down. And now we are really shifting to this understanding the brain and body science, understanding that the behavior is really just the tip of the iceberg, and it’s really just the communication of what’s going on internally inside the child and inside for us, when we can understand our own behavior and how our reactions to our children come up. We can understand theirs as well.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yes, because understanding their part of what’s going on for them is one piece of it, understanding us as the other piece, and I think that’s the part. I find that can be tricky for a lot of adults to embrace, and not just parents, professionals working with kids, right? Teachers working with kids, healthcare professionals — we have to be willing to be aware of and understand our part of it. And that can be a hard sell, I think.

Maggie Viers 

It’s very hard. And I think for the people that are kind of on this conscious interaction path, or practicing consciousness in their daily life, I think a lot more feelings of shame and guilt can come up, because we are more aware. We’re more aware of our mistakes that we are making, we are more aware of the impacts that we might be having in these interactions with our children. So I think it’s really important to go gradually, and kind of titrate our experience with triggers and be compassionate with ourselves.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah, for us and for them, right? Because trying to be aware of and change everything all at once is a recipe for disaster for our kids and for us.

Maggie Viers 

Absolutely, yes,

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I want to bring occupational therapy into the conversation here, because it’s one of the things that I think is really unique about you, and probably a lot of our listeners maybe have had some interaction with occupational therapists over the course of maybe their child’s history, whether it’s in school, or outside therapy, or whatever. But I think this idea of occupational therapists engaging in this type of work with parents, this parent-focused piece, that’s a shift for a lot of people, right? Because when they think about occupational therapy, it’s like, ”Oh, I bring my child to this clinic, and the OT does stuff in the sensory gym with my kid for 45 minutes”, or “My idea of OT is my kid has it on their IEP and the OT comes in once a week and works on handwriting or shoe tying or whatever.” And what you are bringing, what you are combining here is really quite different. So I’d love to have you talk about the role of occupational therapy and occupational therapists in doing this kind of work with parents.

Maggie Viers 

Yeah, so in occupational therapy, we focus so much on function and occupation, engagement in our daily lives. And so yes, in our sessions with parents, we are focusing on child-centered struggles, child type issues, but our focus is really on the relationship. We are blending our knowledge in attachment science and conscious interaction in the way a child’s brain develops, and also our knowledge of the sensory systems and making sense of behavior through the sensory system lens. So sensory really is behavior. We can’t detach one from the other. So a great example of this is this morning, I tripped and I hid my foot on the table, and then there was this immediate emotional reaction in me. There was this irritation. And so helping guide parents to understand the importance of the relationship, the importance of the sensory systems, making sense of our unique sensory experiences, us as parents, and our children is really the unique part of our work.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

It’s beautiful. And I think what’s so profoundly important about this is the focus on parents as the primary driver of change here for kids, particularly when they are having struggles when they are having sensory issues, when they are having whatever, because I just know so many families where the child has been in occupational therapy for years and years and years, and the parent doesn’t really know what’s happening in those sessions isn’t receiving any guidance to do things at home, and I realized two decades ago, in starting to work with families and with kids, that actually most of my education and support better be geared towards parents, because they are the ones living in the trenches 24/7 with these kids. Me being able to do something with a kid in a session doesn’t matter if I’m not supporting parents to understand and make those shifts, and so I think what you are talking about is so profoundly important. It’s sort of the difference between giving somebody a fish and teaching them to fish, and what you are really talking about here is teaching parents to fish is teaching them how to understand what’s going on in their child’s brain and body and that connection, and then also what’s going on in their brain and body so that they can support those daily interactions better, right?

Maggie Viers 

Absolutely. Absolutely. The relationship is the foundation for everything else. So we can work on the handwriting, we can work on the dressing, we can work on all of these things. But if the parent and child relationship is not strong, if there’s a break in that foundation, then everything else is going to crumble. So our focus is really on building that connection, building that relationship.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah. So let’s talk a bit about dysregulation because all kids get dysregulated, right, where, whoa, their emotional and behavioral reaction to the situation is maybe way out of the realm of what we expected or perceive as appropriate, right? That’s dysregulation. All kids get dysregulated sometimes. Some kids get dysregulated way more often and way more intensely. So I love your perspective, how do you look at that in kids? How do you frame for yourself why dysregulation happens in kids? And then we can get into maybe how we can use that to support them better, but how do you connect those dots for yourself?

Maggie Viers 

Sure, so dysregulation can happen for a variety of reasons with our kids. We can never really know exactly what’s going on inside of them, but a few reasons would be: One would be the demands are greater than our child’s capacity to cope. So the situation at hand, their specific unique nervous system is not available to cope with that situation at hand. Another reason would be that they are looking for connection, that attachment. And a lot of times I think, because I’m staying home with my kids, I’m with them all the time, they are fine. But a lot of times, if we haven’t really gotten down on their level, if we haven’t made eye contact, really connected with them, they are still going to be feeling dysregulated. Connection, that lack of connection with a caregiver is the greatest stressor for kids. Another reason would be there’s this physical and emotional buildup of energy that needs to be released, and it’s coming out in dysregulation. Maybe it’s that they are tired or hungry and they don’t have the language yet to express that that’s what’s going on, and so it comes out in this funky behavior. So lots of different reasons. And sometimes they are just trying to affirm that their caregivers are safe, and that they can go to their caregivers, and they will show up the same way every time. So there’s lots of reasons why our kids get dysregulated, unfortunately.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah, and it’s part of the developmental process. I think we forget that. I think that as adults, our expectations for kids, whether we explicitly state it or not, or expectations that they just do what they are supposed to do so that our life is easy, so that life goes more easily, right? And we forget that their brain is still developing. Of course they can’t cope with and manage a lot of the things that we might expect them to, because they’re kids, right? And even in their teen years, their brain is still developing, they are still growing, they are still learning. And so I think that some of the time we run into chronic struggles with our kids because we are expecting this, and developmentally, this is where they are. And of course there’s going to be a gap, and there’s going to be breakdowns, and then we don’t tend to respond to that really well. It’s like, “Well, why aren’t you? Well, this is now making my life hard. Well, this is uncomfortable, you need to stop.” And it’s like, wait a second, was our expectation reasonable in the first place?

Maggie Viers 

Absolutely. And oftentimes, us as adults can’t even regulate our emotions. So we have these crazy expectations of our kids to be able to hold it together. And we can’t even sometimes, so reminding myself of that, too, has been very powerful.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

It’s so true. The classic example that comes to mind, both in my own life with my kids, but certainly with working with so many thousands of parents over the years — my kid will do something, and I sort of snap and get triggered by it. And I start yelling and getting escalated. And when you step back from that, that’s the irony of this, right? I’m upset with you, 5-year-old or 12-year-old or whatever, because you are not keeping it together and managing this, and also what am I doing right now? Losing my you know what and blaming you for it, right? And I’m the adult in the situation. And I think when we can step back and realize, wow, does that happen a lot, right?

Maggie Viers 

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

So, I want to talk about this idea of meltdowns because there’s a lot on social media and elsewhere about meltdowns and how to handle them, and there’s a lot of different schools of thought on that. And so from this sort of relational nervous system, regulation-focused construct, how do you view a meltdown? What’s happening there? And what should we be doing around that?

Maggie Viers 

So if you think about a meltdown, we are thinking about how a child’s brain develops. And our brain stem is what controls our survival. So this is where we are going to see these Fight, Flight, Freeze responses show up in our kids. And the brain develops from the bottom up. And so it takes thousands and thousands of these co-regulated interactions with us, the parents before that part of the brain is even formed. So when our child is having a meltdown, their body and brain has scanned a threat in some way. So we think about when we were in the tribe, and there was this big grizzly bear, our first stress response is to fight. We want to try and fight the bear. And then if that doesn’t work, then we try and run away from the bear. And if that doesn’t work, we might try to play dead. So when we talk about the stress responses in daily life, the stressors are different. The stressors are going to look different than back then, but that is essentially what a meltdown is: our child’s brain and body have scanned a threat in some way, and they are dysregulated.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah. And I think what’s important to point out here is, I’m sure you see all the time with the parents that you work with. It’s not our perception of whether there’s a threat, right? Because I don’t know if you hear this a lot from parents, but, “Well, there’s no threat, this was a minor thing. Of course, they are safe”, whatever. No. Threat is in the eye of the beholder, right? This isn’t about our perception as the adult. This is about the child’s brain and body perception.

Maggie Viers 

Absolutely. And I think I’ve had a lot of practice at this because I have highly sensitive children, and so they have very unique nervous systems, very sensitive nervous systems. And so oftentimes, I have to catch myself before I say, “Oh, come on, it’s just a t- shirt, it’s not a big deal.” And really stop and think about what this experience is for her nervous system, how this is irritating in some way on her body. And it’s her experience. And so really validating that for her and understanding that everybody’s nervous system is as unique as a thumbprint, and so we really need to make sure that we are accepting that and validating through that.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

That’s right. I love that you gave that example, because I think there’s so many listeners going, “Uh huh, that happens on a regular basis.” So what are some other ways that that shows up, just to help listeners sort of make this concrete in their minds? Maybe with your own kids that you notice or, or with families that you work with, where we as the adult tend to not understand or misperceive — So the whole thing like getting dressed or the clothing, that’s one thing, are there other things?

Maggie Viers 

I think we have so many expectations of what should happen. A lot of times we get into these — our own fear comes up, our own anger around things that we have expectations about. So we might have some grief, for instance with the T-shirt and the tag. My daughter wears the same things and the same types of clothes, and I think there’s some, maybe grief around expectations around what I thought it would be like. What I thought my relationship with, or what my child would be like. I have these expectations of maybe this easy-going child or this kid who would wear whatever I wanted them to wear, these cute outfits that I had planned, and she is very much this unique person who has her own preferences. And so I think I run into this daily with my kids because I have to really step away and notice what expectations I’m placing on my kids that are really not fair.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah. And I think from a sensory systems standpoint, this is really tough for a lot of adults. If we don’t experience some of these sensory processing issues or just have a sensitive system, not being able to process and integrate sensory information very well, if we don’t have that issue. It’s really tough, it takes some work, I think, for us to understand what that’s like for our child, so that we can take that perspective and respond in a way that represents understanding of that. And I would think that you probably see that a lot, especially with parents seeking out occupational therapy when their kids have sensory issues. I would expect that probably a lot of what you do is helping them understand their child’s experience of those things.

Maggie Viers 

Absolutely. And also, I think what’s even more powerful is helping them understand their own sensory system, because then we are able to really apply it to somebody else. These are my unique sensory needs. I think in motherhood, there’s this just overwhelming amount of overstimulation, bombardment through all the senses. So when we can really sit down with parents and kind of help them understand their own sensory systems, this actually helps them understand their kids and what’s going on with their kids’ sensory systems and how to best support them.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I’d love for you to give a couple examples, either for yourself or from parents that you have worked with, in helping them, helping adults understand their own sensory needs. Because those of you listening, if you have been through occupational therapy or sensory-focused therapies with your kids the focus has probably been on your kids, “Oh, the tags in the shirt or needing to swing a lot, or wanting to crash into things. But I think not very often do we think about this for ourselves. So could you share some examples that you have come across of things that adults have become aware of, or can relate to in terms of their own sensory experience?

Maggie Viers 

Yes, so for me, I mean, I am a highly sensitive parent. And so I have very unique sensitivities when it comes to visual clutter, seeing all the toys strewn about. I’m also very sensitive to auditory information. So when there’s a lot of screaming, which is a very developmentally appropriate kid thing, when there’s a lot of kids climbing all over me, I get very, very overstimulated. And I think that this is normal for mothers in general. But when you have this sensitive nervous system, it’s that overstimulation times 10. And so what’s been so helpful for me is making sure that I’m making regular deposits for my own nervous system. So for me, this looks like getting outside, moving my body, identifying those times of the day that are louder and popping in my ear plugs so that I have a little bit of sensory deprivation. Maybe I’m noticing that I’m getting really overwhelmed and overstimulated and I need to take a break in my room for five minutes, so that I can catch a breath and come back to the center. So all of these things have helped me understand my own nervous system. And then I can use those tools throughout my day.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

It’s so interesting talking about this, as it’s making me remember: There was a post that I did on social media, probably two months ago now, but it was around this issue of how do you support your own sensory needs when your kids are loud and whatever. And that was one of my most popular posts by far, and it surprised me. In hindsight, it doesn’t surprise me, and now in talking with you about it, it doesn’t surprise me, but at the time, I was like, “Oh, wow. But that’s so true”, right? Our experiences as moms, especially when you have got a lot of younger kids. Or if you are a person who really values space and privacy and quiet, wow, does that collide with parenting in a big way, or even teens who can be loud and all over the place, or certainly, if you have a child who’s very easily dysregulated, for whatever reason, there’s a lot of noise, there’s a lot of stuff. And I think often we talk about self-care needing to take time for ourselves and get away from the standpoint of the psychological part of us. And actually, I think what we are really talking about there is exactly what you are saying. No, this is at a very basic foundational level about understanding and supporting our own sensory needs, our own nervous system regulation, and managing sensation around that.

Maggie Viers 

Yes, absolutely. And when we are doing that, we can say out loud what we are doing; we are modeling how to take care of our own nervous systems and showing our kids how to do the same. And I think in motherhood, sometimes I’m able to regulate, sometimes I’m able to make those deposits into my sensory bank and sometimes I’m not. Sometimes the wrath of four small children just completely overtakes my ability to cope with the situation, and in those instances, what’s been so helpful for me is channeling my own rage or dysregulation that comes up from that overstimulation into helpful energy. So energy that’s not going to harm my kids, it’s not going to make them feel bad, but it allows me to get that release, and it shifts the energy into this playful tone. So one post that Katie and I did recently was this monster mommy. So we channel that rage, we channel that angst, and we stomp around and chase the kids and be this monster, so we are able to get that out, and our kids are not scared by our reaction.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I love that. I’d love for you to share some more examples of ways that you, when you are working with parents, help them to apply this stuff. So you talked about some things that you do for yourself, as far as earplugs, getting time away. What are some other sort of go-to things when you are first starting to work with parents around this, that you try to have them maybe do on a regular basis with their kids or embed into certain activities? What are some of the things that are helpful starting points?

Maggie Viers 

Yeah, so one of the things that we always talk about too, is just how to support in those moments. Let’s take a meltdown. So as an OT, I’m thinking about ways that we can support that child’s unique nervous system through either adding sensory input, or taking it away. So maybe this looks like, if we are trying to get some energy out, we are going to run and crash on the couch, or we are going to do five big jumps to get that energy out. Sometimes it’s taking away sensory input. So sometimes it’s like okay, we need to come over here where there’s less visual stimuli. Maybe it’s sitting in a hammock, so we have that kind of sensory deprivation. Maybe it’s an environmental shift, maybe we are out at a party and our child’s melting down, and what we need to do is kind of bring them into another room, away from the crowd, maybe the people are overstimulating, it’s a new environment, and we read a book for a minute. And then we can kind of regroup and go back out. So a lot of it is kind of helping parents to understand their child’s specific needs, and what can help in those moments, day to day.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah, I love that. I want to go back to the example that you gave, because I think it’s such a common one, of your experience with your daughter around getting dressed and around clothing. Because I know, for most people listening and my experience with most parents over the years, that type of thing can lead to a daily chronic power struggle battle, the kids triggered, we are triggered, everyday starts terribly. So I’d love to have you sort of tangibly walk through either how you have shifted to thinking about and managing that — maybe there’s some proactive things, maybe there’s some things in the moment. How can we shift, though, if a parent is really in that chronic power struggle cycle with their kid over what they are going to wear or maybe it’s what they are going to eat or when they are going to put their socks on, or whatever. What are your recommendations around that?

Maggie Viers 

Yeah, so in all of our sessions with parents, we are starting with regulating the parents first. We are starting with talking about what’s coming up for them around this specific child struggle. So with the tags, with getting dressed. Is there anger? Is there fear? Is there some sort of expectation, there may be some sadness and grief, and regulating through that, making sense of that with the parent. And then once we have kind of regulated around the parents’ emotions, figuring out what is at the root of this behavior? What’s the underlying need or emotion? And sometimes it’s as simple as their tactile system is sensitive, and they don’t like the way that the tag feels on their body. And so for me, I’ve really taken this approach of, I’m going to respect that this is not something that my child likes, this is something that’s an easy solution. We cut out the tags for a shirt, we buy the types of clothes that she likes, and we kind of accommodate that way.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I think it’s interesting because this happens without us realizing it, even in something as seemingly insignificant as what our kid wants to wear or can’t tolerate wearing. We do this mental time travel, without even being aware of it, with my daughter not wanting to put these clothes on. I think you are right. It can trigger embarrassment for some people. “What will other people think of me?”, which often is rooted in our own experiences as children of having to do things because our parents didn’t want to be embarrassed of us? Right? Not that that was explicitly stated. But that was the deal, right? So sometimes there’s embarrassment, shame, those kinds of things. But I think also we jump without even realizing it, “Oh my gosh, what’s going to happen to my kid if they don’t learn to do things they don’t want to do? They are never going to make it through school, they won’t get into a good college, she’s never going to have a job”, and we are reacting to this situation over tags in the shirt out of a space of “Oh, my gosh, you are going to be homeless and never be able to work.”

Maggie Viers 

Yes, we are usually operating from the past or the present. And we really need to slow down and focus on the present moment.
Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, we are in the past, we are in the future. And what we need to be is right here, right now. Yeah. I think that’s so true. I just want to touch on — because this is part of your story. The piece about trauma. Trauma can be defined in lots of different ways. Our listeners know, we have done several different episodes on trauma in various ways. But I’m curious for you, as a mom, as an occupational therapist, as an adoptee doing the kind of work you are doing now, how do you think about the role of trauma for us in our parenting?

Maggie Viers 

Yeah, so I think there’s so many definitions of trauma, but one that I have kind of attached to is just anything that has kind of overwhelmed our nervous system and our ability to cope in the moment. And so many times I think we think of trauma as these big events that happen, like  a car accident, and yes, those are traumatic events. But there’s also these little traumas that happen, developmental trauma, attachment trauma, things that we didn’t get. Emotional neglect. So when we think about the kind of parenting style that our own parents had, was there permissiveness where emotions ran the show? Was there this authoritarian, where force and control and obedience and compliance were prioritized over the relationship? All of these things get wired into us, and then directly impact our ability and our parenting today. And it’s not until we become aware of that and our own patterns that we can make a change.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

And we tend to just repeat these patterns, right? Unless we become consciously aware of them.

Maggie Viers 

Absolutely, yes. And if we had a caregiver who was emotionally dysregulated or didn’t know how to regulate their own emotions, that is going to impact our ability to help co-regulate our child’s emotions. It’s going to be very difficult to make space for those big feelings that come up.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Before we wrap up, I have one more question I want to ask. This is occurring to me because many of the parents who listen to this show have children who have been diagnosed with something, who have symptoms, issues that rise to the level of, maybe they have been diagnosed as autistic, or with ADHD, or a learning disability, or anxiety, depression, whatever it might be. And I think that one of the unfortunate things that happens around this whole way of understanding the parent-child relationship, like trauma-informed and also nervous system regulation, and looking at our own issues, and whatever. I think that a lot of parents, if their kid has a clinical diagnosis of something, look at that and go, “Well, that’s nice for the rest of you. But that doesn’t apply to me. Me doing this work, me operating in this way, that doesn’t address my child’s autism”, right? Or, “Well, you don’t understand, my kid has been diagnosed with seven behavioral disorders, neurodevelopmental issues, whatever. This isn’t part of the picture for us.  That’s nice for the rest of you, but this isn’t for us. This can’t make a difference for us.” And I’m curious about your response to that.

Maggie Viers 

Yeah, I think that relationship with the caregiver is always at the foundation of everything, diagnosis or not. If we have that safe, nurturing caregiver that we can turn to in any of those hard moments, whether we are neurotypical or neurodivergent, or whatever it might be, that is of utmost importance, I would say.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

It becomes almost more important in those situations, I think, which is ironic, right? The people who are most like, “Well, no, I need to do all these behavioral programs or all these other things, this is it for me,” no, it’s actually even more important for you because your child already has such a more sensitive nervous system and brain-body disconnect, it’s even more important.

Maggie Viers 

Yes, absolutely. And I think with all the parenting advice that’s out there and all of these different platforms, it’s easy to get kind of taken away by all of these, like, “Well, I should be doing this, and I should be doing that.” And I think it’s really important to focus on the child that’s in front of you, and to really focus on what their specific needs are because we can’t take blanket advice. Every person is unique, every nervous system is unique. And so some advice might not work for somebody, and it might work for somebody else.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Right, right. I love that. There are so many more things we could talk about, but I know we need to wrap up and I want to make sure that you have an opportunity to tell people where they can find out more about you, your work and what you are doing.

Maggie Viers 

Yeah, so I work with Katie Crosby over at Thriving Littles. You can find us at www.thrivinglittles.com, and you can find me @theempoweredfamily on Instagram.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

And Maggie’s Instagram is so great. You do a lot of honest from your heart posts, and also informative and educational. So I highly recommend that you all go over to Instagram if you are on there and follow Maggie. And you just recently changed the name of your account, right? It’s @theempoweredfamily? Awesome. I love that. And say a little bit about Thriving Littles because you all have a virtual clinic, right?

Maggie Viers 

Yes, we see clients one on one virtually, and we also have programs and courses as well.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Awesome. Maggie, thank you so much for the wonderful work you are doing in the world as a mom, as an occupational therapist, as an educator and parent coach, I just really value what you are doing. And also thank you for sharing time with us today. We appreciate it.

Maggie Viers 

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

And thanks as always, to all of you for being here and for listening. We will catch you back here next time.