Which Personality Type Are You And How Does It Affect Your Parenting?

Episode Transcript

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the show. I’m Dr. Nicole, and on today’s episode, we are talking about something that isn’t new, but has been getting a lot more attention lately, the Enneagram. For those of you who haven’t heard of it, the Enneagram is a system of Personality Typing. It helps us understand how we experience the world, how we make sense of the things that happened to us, and manage our emotions and responses to things that happen. While the Enneagram can be helpful for us to make sense of our own personal experience and relationships, one area it can be especially useful in is understanding ourselves more deeply as parents, when we know more about our own type and how it might intersect with our children and their types, we can use that information to support us in becoming even better parents. So to explore this with us today, I’ve invited Meredith TerHaar and Joe Graham on the show. Let me tell you a bit about them. Joe lives in Holland, Michigan with his wife Tiffany and their two children. He began his leadership career with Young Life, and also served as an executive pastor with Harbor Churches, a multisite church in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In 2018, he formed his coaching practice, and then co-founded Growing with The Enneagram in 2019. He’s trained as a professional coach, and along with that work, he’s the director of people and culture at Resthaven, a nonprofit faith-based senior living community. Meredith TerHaar is a morning news anchor in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and that’s how I know Meredith well, through all the work that I’ve done with her on TV. She’s an Enneagram coach and co-founder of Growing with The Enneagram, which specializes in corporate workshops and team retreats, as well as couples and one on one coaching. She’s married to Eric and mom to Marin and Judah, and she and Eric have written several children’s books together. Meredith and Joe, I am thrilled to have you here today to talk about the Enneagram. Welcome,

Meredith TerHaar 

Dr. Nicole, we are thrilled to be with you. Thank you so much for this invitation.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

So I love having the two of you on to talk about the Enneagram. There’s just lots of people who can talk about the Enneagram, but I want to get into it specifically around our parenting, and the two of you are perfect for this because you are both parents. So I want to dive into all the nitty gritty of how we can understand ourselves and how we can use this with our kids. But first, let’s give people a foundation for those who have never heard of the Enneagram before and our like “Dr. Nicole, why are you doing an episode on the Enneagram?” I’d love to have you share what it is, a little bit of the history of it, so we can ground people and understanding what we are talking about.

Joe Graham 

Yeah, thanks for having us, Dr. Nicole, I can give a brief intro to the Enneagram. Enneagram is simply a map for self-discovery and personal growth. It’s this diagram that has nine different points. And “ennea” means nine-gram meets diagram or side. And so if you Google the Enneagram, you will see all these different symbols that come up. The good ones have nine points to it. What these nine different personality types are, they are people’s basic way of relating to the world. The Enneagram helps us understand how we think, how we feel, and how we behave. It’s organized around three instinctual centers: Our gut, our head, and our heart. So we are thinking about our physical sensations, our emotional experience of life, and then our intellectual or mental experience. They group in threes. So three of the types are in the gut triad, as it’s called, three are in the head triad, and three are in the heart triad. And each of those triads has a different natural way of relating to the world. We all have a heart, we all have a head, and we all have a gut, but we tend to rely on one more than the other. And so the gift of the Enneagram is that it helps us identify particular ways that we think, how we feel, and then how we show up and interact with each other.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I love it. That’s a great overview. And Meredith, I’m curious, people, when they hear about personality typing, this type of thing, maybe are thinking of other ones that they have done out there. I mean, there’s the Myers Briggs—there’s several different types, right?

Meredith TerHaar 

Yeah, absolutely. They’re strengths finders. As you mentioned, DISC, Myers Briggs, and we think those are all fantastic. The reason that we liked the Enneagram the best, I will say, is because we feel it gets at the why behind, the motivation, why we show up the way we do, why we think, feel and act certain ways. The Enneagram gives helpful language to our motivations, our core fears, our core desires, strengths, weaknesses, triggers, which is so important as parents to know these things. So it’s an incredibly helpful tool that can lead to transformation.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I’m so glad you just mentioned that about how the enneagram focuses on the why, the underlying motivations, because in my work, whether it’s in the clinic or what I share online or on the podcast, so much of it is around looking beyond just the labels and the surface, and understanding the why underneath for: Why are kids behaving the way they are? Why are the things happening with them? Why are we triggered by this? And so you talking about the Enneagram now, it’s such a perfect fit. And it actually made something click for me around why when I discovered the Enneagram and went through it for myself, looking at what type I was, why that resonated for me so much more than other ones that I had done in the past. And it’s exactly that. It’s because I don’t just want to know the label of “Oh, what type am I?” I mean, it’s sort of fun, you can talk about it at a party or whatever. But I’m more invested in understanding what makes us tick… why is that how we show up in the world? Why are those the things that are so important to us? And so yeah, that just really resonates? I’m glad you touched on that.

So this can be helpful, like you said, Joe, too, it can be helpful, it helps us understand ourselves, it helps us understand others, I’ve got to imagine that in relationships in general, this is helpful. I mean, we are going to dig into the parenting piece of it, but one of the things I saw in your bio, you guys do work around this with couples, with organizations. This impacts our relationships in the workplace at home and our families in lots of ways. Right?

Joe Graham 

Absolutely. I think one of the challenges that the Enneagram will bring to the surface for you is that you are a whole person. And so is this for work, is this for home, is this for school? Well, the answer is yes. And so the Enneagram, because of its emphasis on helping us understand and become aware of our underlying motivations, we begin to realize that we take those motivations with us wherever we go. Now, they do show up in different ways in different spaces, based on how comfortable we are with who we are with and what we are doing. But these core desires, these core fears, they are they are prevailing. They are that thing that is the inner monologue, is what I call it sometimes, that is helping us process the world. And so how do we receive information? How do we perceive what comes at us when we walk into a room? What do we then do with that information? And then how do we respond, is all connected. And so unfortunately, with the Enneagram, we can’t compartmentalize it, because it will help you see things that you may not have seen before. And you think about how you show up as a parent, and oh, my word.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

It’s like opening Pandora’s box, right? It’s like once you open it up, once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And I think that’s a really good point. And what’s so great about this is that there are so many parents in this community who are focused on understanding themselves better so that they can be better for their kids. And so I know this is just going to resonate so deeply. And I absolutely know the question that everyone listening right now is asking, “How do I figure out what type I am? I need to understand this.” So let’s get into what these nine types are, and obviously, on the show today, we are just going to be able to sort of touch the very tip of the iceberg of each of these. But let’s give people an overview of them. And maybe even start with a basic narrative: How do people find out what type they are?

Meredith TerHaar 

Yeah, I’m glad you asked. Because I feel like you were giving people a cliffhanger there, Dr. Nicole. So there’s a couple of different ways. There are a lot of assessments out there. Some are excellent, some are not so excellent, depending on — There are a couple that are relatively inexpensive. Our favorite right now — Joe and I are constantly evaluating different assessments, but we oftentimes will use the RHETI, which is the The Riso-Hudson Enneagram Type Indicator. It’s about $12 online, you get some really robust results. But something that’s really important for us, we always teach this when we talk about landing on your type: An assessment is not 100%. It’s not always going to help you land your type the first time around. It may more likely help you land your top three. And then through helpful dialogue, perhaps talking with a coach, perhaps doing some reading, talking with someone who knows the Enneagram and also knows you well. Those are ways that you can find clarity, and hopefully as Joe and I teach today, if you are perhaps in between numbers or teaching may help bring clarity, but again, this is going to be relatively quick. And the way this is going to go Dr. Nicole, is we are going to give a quick overview of each number. And as we go, we will talk about the strengths in parenting that that number may have, we are going to talk about places that parents may want to give more attention to if they identify as that type, ways that they can develop, and I think a really interesting insight is we will share how children who have become adults, look back on being parented by that type. So I think that’s really interesting for everybody, wherever they are in their Enneagram journey.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Love it. All right, everybody, get your pens and your paper out, because you are going to want to take notes on this, okay, I’m going to let whoever is going to start with whatever number you are going to start with, let’s roll.

Joe Graham 

Yeah, let’s get into it. And I’ll give one shameless plug here, too, with Enneagram assessments. So there’s three different ones that I use regularly now, and I’ve been doing this for a couple years, based on the setting. I am more convinced every day: The best thing to do with an Enneagram assessment is to have a debrief with a coach, someone who knows the tool and can be that non-judgmental guide, and help you discover your true and best self, because they are going to be able to see things, and because the Enneagram is so rich in content, you can get lost quickly if you don’t have a guide.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I love that you said that. And here’s what I’ll say about that, because I experienced it a little bit myself. And a lot of my friends who have taken this have said the same thing. There’s a tendency when we do sort of tests or assessments like this, to answer things based on who and how we want to be as opposed to maybe how we really are. And so I love that you mentioned that it can be helpful, whether it’s debriefing with a coach, or even just somebody who knows us well, to just give us some feedback on: Is that really who you are? Or Is that who you wish you were? Because there’s some of that, that comes up in this right?

Joe Graham 

There’s a ton of it. Yeah. And paying attention to underlying emotions is hard work. And there’s different social constructs and expectations that have been put on us that may force us to try to be one type, when we are actually another type. And so it is normal to resonate with a number of the nine types. And all of us actually have the ability to resonate and see the viewpoint of that type. But we have one that’s core.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Awesome, perfect. So with that being said, let’s get into it. Which one do you want to start with?

Joe Graham 

Yeah, we are going to start with type eight. And the reason we do this is we start with what’s called the gut triad, which consists of numbers, eight, nine, and one. And what’s really important for these three numbers is that we recognize they all have an underlying emotional struggle, and that struggle is with anger. And in response to the anger that they feel, they move towards finding justice, or making things right, and so eight, nine, and one each do that in slightly different ways. And they perceive life through their gut, they just have an intuition, things tend to be black or white for them, just have a knowing. And so for these three numbers, that will be the case. The type eight, I’ll jump right in with them, is called The Protective Challenger. This is a self-confident, decisive, willful personality. Their core desire is to protect themselves and others, and their core fear is the fear of being controlled or being betrayed.

Meredith TerHaar 

So you can hear some of the strengths already in what it might be like to parent as a type eight. So they are protective of their children, they are going to go to bat for their kids. They are going to show their kids how to stand up to injustice. They model self-confidence. They are loyal, they are caring. They are really skilled at encouraging their kids to approach challenges directly. Eights are really direct communicators, and they can teach that to their kids. They are going to empower their kids and encourage them to stand up for the vulnerable. That is something that eights do so beautifully. They are the voice for the voiceless in many situations. Now skills to develop: It’s important that eights also trust others in their parenting journey, whether it’s their spouse or their partner. Eights need to remember that they don’t have to be in complete control all the time. Eights have a tendency—not all eights, but some have a tendency to move to anger quickly.

And so it’s really important for eights to think about, what is it going to be like to be on the receiving end of what I have to say? What is it going to be like for my child to receive this response? Because sometimes eights don’t recognize the power of their impact, and especially for our kiddos, it’s important that we not displace anger on them. Now, in terms of — Dr. Nicole, kiddos who are parented by eight adults who are now looking back on that, it’s really fascinating because it totally depends on the type that the child identifies as. If they are a fellow eight, they are probably not going to have a real tough time with mom or dad being pretty direct. Whereas if a child is a four, who’s going to be a deep feeler and very sensitive, that’s going to be a tougher parenting style for a child who grew up as a four. So it really depends on, and specifically with eights, this is the only time, this is the insight, as it depends on the child’s type in terms of what it was like for them to be raised by an eight. But that’s interesting to hear, isn’t it?

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Absolutely. And I think that point about how we, as the adult need to be aware of how that might be received by the child, that perspective taking is so important, because as an eight, you might feel like, “Well, this is legitimate, I’m not being mean, I’m just being direct”,  and that could be received not only by kids, but by other adults in your life, too, as an uncomfortable thing, and it can set you up, especially with kids, I think, for maybe some power struggles, or some hurt or things, unintentionally. And this is the piece that I think you are talking about, those strengths, and then the areas to work on, I think we all need to recognize that we all have both of those. And I think in talking about these nine, it’s so important to recognize — You probably get asked “What’s the best one?” And it’s like, well, there isn’t the best one, right? They all have strengths, and they all have some challenges, or some things to be aware of. And so to look at it that way, whether you are an eight or whatever else, we all have areas to work on with it. So I love that you are talking about it in that way. Awesome.

Joe Graham 

Yeah, and I would say sometimes to work on what we become aware of. So part of the Enneagram is it helps us become aware of the inner paradox we can’t resolve. And so that’s where our strengths and our weaknesses get kind of wrapped into each other. And so for the eight as the protective challenger, they may be challenging something that isn’t theirs to protect.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I was just thinking about that, like might an eight be a parent who tends to jump in right away and try to defend or fix something, as opposed to allowing the child to sit with it and figure it out and have their experience with it?

Meredith TerHaar 

Absolutely, eights go to action so fast, and they are future-oriented. That’s where they spend their thought life. So if something happens, they want to fix it, address it and move on quickly. And that can be challenging for a child, I think you have just identified something really important. Dr. Beurkens.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Awesome. Awesome. Okay, so those are our eights. So for those of you who identify with that, keep listening to the rest, you may find yourself in a few of these. Okay, where do you want to go next after eight?

Joe Graham 

We go to nine. And we are still in the same triad. So still, in that space of experiencing anger, even though the nine, which is called the peaceful mediator, may not experience their anger. It comes off differently for them. They tend to bury their anger a little bit, but they are still focused on that “How do we make things right with others?” And “What do we do?” So focused on action. So the nine is really receptive, reassuring, their core desire is to have inner stability and peace of mind, and to find harmony with themselves and those they do life with and interact with in the world. And their core fear is the fear of being in conflict, or being overlooked, or being in a relationship that is not in a good space. And so the nines have this inner monologue of go along to get along, and so they are very caring, very relational, and highly attuned to others.

Meredith TerHaar 

Absolutely, they are experts at staying calm during conflict. And I feel like Dr. Beurkens, is that something that you coach on. As a parent, stay calm, don’t take on your child’s emotions, right? And so they are good at that. And they are good at modeling it. That’s an important skill to teach our children. As Joe said, they are non-judgmental, they are accepting of who their children are, and they are really good at just being. We have a lot of types on the Enneagram that are so action oriented, that are all about filling up the schedule, and nine is really good at being present with their children and enjoying who they are, and that’s a beautiful thing. A few things that nines should be aware of, or perhaps can develop, work on stepping into the relationship with your child as your full-self, okay? Sometimes nines will defer to the more assertive in the relationship. If the child is more assertive than you are, that’s going to be a problem, right? You are the parents, and the child needs you to show up as your full self. Now, we know that relationships matter so deeply to nines, and they want to keep the peace. And so as Joe said, they’ll go along to get along, but we don’t want them to merge with their children. We want those healthy boundaries because we know children want them too. Oftentimes, people who have been parented by a nine will say that they really appreciated their parents’ flexibility, that their parents would be passionate about the things that they were passionate about, which is wonderful, but that idea of merging with them sometimes created difficulty and separating, which I thought was a really interesting insight.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

That’s such an important insight, especially there’s more talk these days around codependency in relationships as we get older, how we set the stage for that when our kids are young. So I think that’s a really good point. I wonder, too, you both mentioned this going along to get along, sort of this conflict avoiding, I wonder, too, if nine parents maybe tend to be more avoidant of things where they need to set boundaries or step in and guide a little bit more, because they are afraid of upsetting the child.

Meredith TerHaar 

Exactly. I think about permissive parenting, to use those terms, right? I think that nines can fall into permissive parenting because they don’t want to upset their child. And so we keep the peace by maybe allowing something that we shouldn’t allow, or maybe just looking past something. And so just something for people who identify as nines to be aware of.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Love it. Okay, so we have got eights and nines. Are we going to ones next?

Joe Graham 

We are. And when you just said burning question a little while ago, Dr. Nicole, I thought it was going to be this question, so I want to get to it now because I’ve been thinking about it. Do we type kids?

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah, let’s talk about that.

Meredith TerHaar 

You want to talk about it right now, Joe?

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah, because you are right, people might be wondering about that, especially as we are talking about parent types, they might be saying, well, what about my kids? So talk about why you don’t?

Joe Graham 

What we know from the integrative disciplines of medicine, psychology, social work, developmentally, we know the human brain is still growing to 25, and so we want to be really mindful of what messages or expectations we may put on a person, and we want them to become their own, but we also recognize they are part of our family. So we have expectations, values, beliefs, things that are important to us. I’ve seen it work really well with college students’ age, when they are starting to do self-discovery and self-exploration in that way. But thinking about how adolescence is such a formative time, developmentally, I spent a decade of my career in that space in ministry settings, recognizing we just need to be really careful with what we give kids. And they are looking for identity everywhere they can find it, and so the Enneagram can be really helpful; it can help you find yourself, but it also is just a tool. And so that’s kind of our posture as coaches, is just to be really careful with it. Can you notice tendencies once you know the Enneagram? Absolutely. And that can help you be a more empathetic parent and understanding, oh, they are trying to resolve this thing that they can’t, but giving a 15-year-old this language, it may not be helpful, because it may not actually be who they are, and it could change next week.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I’m really glad that you touched on that. I’m a big believer, for kids, in all things related to labels, diagnostically and otherwise, that we need to be really cautious about that. And yeah, I love what you are saying, it can help give us some insight, we can perhaps see some patterns, some tendencies, but we leave it to our children when they get to the point in their life, when developmentally they are ready to explore that, for them to explore that and decide for themselves where they fall. Our job and what we need to do as parents now is understand ourselves so that we can bring our best selves to the parenting of our kids. So Joe, I’m very glad you touched on that. Thank you.

Joe Graham 

Yeah, and I may have been triggered by thinking about that we are heading into type one, the moral perfectionist, and thinking about kids who struggle with wanting to do everything right. And we as a society really put that on kids, by the way we educate and function, it’s “You have to do everything right in this way.” And for some people, especially if you identify as a one on the Enneagram that’s your love language. That’s not everybody’s language for how they see the world.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

That’s right. Well, let’s dive in. Let’s go a little further with the ones.

Joe Graham 

Yeah, so type one, we call a moral perfectionist. Principled, purposeful, self-controlled. Their core desire is to have integrity and balance, to be virtuous, to be ethical, to do things right, to make the world better, and then their core fear is the fear of mistakes or being bad or being angry or irresponsible, or doing something wrong. And so, their drive to make the world better is driven by this fear of doing something wrong.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Oh, I can relate to it.

Meredith TerHaar 

That’s what I was just going to ask, because I believe you yourself identify as an Enneagram one, right. Dr. Nicole? Did these things resonate with you?

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

It’s true. Yes, I have done the assessment a couple of times, actually, over the years. And I’m a clear one. That is what resonates. So Joe, everything you said there, I can relate to.

Meredith TerHaar 

Okay, so things that come naturally to ones who are parents: Type ones are great at guiding their kids towards the appropriate action to take. That’s pretty intuitive for a one. A one knows what we should do next. They are fair, they are consistent, and they really want their kids to have strong moral values. They like to have a plan. Many ones enjoy structure and schedules. They like to ensure that their kids have all they need and are properly provided for. In terms of places that ones can develop, or perhaps they want to be aware of as parents, is this idea of take a deep breath and just play with little kids. Just be playful. I think sometimes our ones are so structured, not all ones, but some ones are so structured. We want our ones to be able to just let loose. I think it’s also important to expand the idea of what is right and wrong. Sometimes ones will fall into black and white thinking, and we know there’s so much gray with kiddos. So this idea that things can be done multiple ways, and still have it be right—many parents who are ones don’t want to be controlling, but it sort of comes naturally. They really have to work against it. Do those things resonate as well?

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Absolutely, I think the piece of structure is one thing, but controlling and making it about what I want it to be is another thing. Structure is good, but then constantly being goal-oriented, or particularly being oriented toward things that I think are most important, that may or may not be the case for my kids. And so yeah, I’ve done a lot of growing in my own awareness around that as my kids have gotten older, that hey, there’s lots of ways here. They are not me. I can create good healthy structure for them without being controlling, that those are two different things, for sure, that resonates. And I think for me, too, what I would say, and maybe those of you, if you identify as a one, you can relate, this piece about not making mistakes and not being bad or wrong. Wow, can that be a big trigger with kids, especially if our kids start to have challenges around things, or our kids are exhibiting difficult behaviors or whatever. I can have a tendency to take that on as my failure or my problem. So I need to fix that because of what people are going to think about me or and it becomes then my issue to deal with around my perfectionism, my wanting things to be a certain way, and so I think that’s something that I’ve noticed that shows up in my parenting and maybe some other people can relate to that, too.

Meredith TerHaar 

Yeah, absolutely. Kiddos who are parented by ones really appreciated their parents’ reliability. Ones are going to get to the school pickup line on time, because that’s what is right. Kiddos appreciate that. Some felt that their parents were too critical. We know that many ones have an inner critic that essentially is critical of them, and then because ones want to improve the world, they sometimes feel it’s loving to point out what needs to be improved in the lives of others. And some of that is okay, but again, like we mentioned with the eights, it’s a good idea to think about “How is this going to be received by my child?” We want to pick our battles.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I feel that.

Joe Graham 

Lighthearted, real-life example. And this connects with — each number will react to this in a different way. So my son’s 11, and he needs to know how to mow the yard. And if we don’t let him mow the yard, he’ll never know how to do it. And so we are going to let him mow the backyard this summer, and we are going to ask him to do that every week, and we also recognize that there’s going to be a few spots that get missed. But if he doesn’t get that opportunity to do that and get comfortable with the lawnmower first, then we can go in and go, “Hey, you missed this spot.” And so I restrain myself, I identify as a five, which is all about competency and getting things done really effectively. And I was like, you know what, let’s not notice what was wrong the first time, let’s focus on getting him out there mowing the yard. It’s just the backyard. We will take care of the front yard until he is more competent in it. But it was one of those moments where I remember going, “He’s not going to learn it unless he gets the opportunity to go do it.”

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

Yep. Well, it’s a beautiful example. And I think ones, or even several other types may have a tendency, again, to go “Well, I’ll just take care of it because they are going to screw it up”, or “What will other people think?” and what’s so interesting, as in everything with parenting, I have said for two decades now that there is no personal development course like becoming a parent. Parenting will change you in the best and hardest of ways if you let it. And what we are talking about here is by understanding our tendencies with this, yes, it helps us to do things with our kids in a more effective way, but guess what? In doing that, it also helps us strengthen some of those areas and deal with some of those things. Me being able to say, “Okay, it’s right and good for my kid to learn how to do this, even though it’s not going to be perfect.” Yeah, on the surface, that’s about helping my kid do something, but also, that’s me working on my own issues with perfectionism, and so this stuff is just so beneficial for all of us.

Meredith TerHaar 

Absolutely. Good. Well, we are about to move into the heart triad. Joe, why don’t you give us a quick synopsis of what that is, and we will move into explaining the type twos.

Joe Graham 

Now, the heart triad is Enneagram types two, three, and four. We call this the feeling center, folks who lean on their emotions more than their gut and their head. Primary emotional struggle for these numbers is what we call shame. This is the identity question, “Who am I?” and looking for others to give input to that in kind of a quest for figuring out who they are and what their contribution to the world is? In response to shame, there’s never enough “Am I worthy?” question they feel, they move towards significance. What can I do to make others respond to me, to affirm me and tell me that I’m valuable?

Meredith TerHaar 

So with our twos, strengths in parenting, a lot of twos love to parent, they love taking care of the people that they love. And what’s really interesting is there’s some cultural pressure for women to identify as twos, even today. So we talked about taking the assessment, that’s something that oftentimes comes up, that if you are taking the assessment with your mom, with that lens on, you may come out as a two, okay?

Joe Graham 

We use the language — we call it the supportive advisor, and some Enneagram systems call it the helper. And both are really good. But just to be aware of some of those in the parenting world, too. I think we can recognize there is a need for the two energy, as we will find out here.

Meredith TerHaar 

Yes, twos are incredibly good listeners. They are often able to read their kids, knowing what their kiddos need before it’s even verbalized. That’s one of their super superpowers, is knowing what is needed in all relationships, not just with their kids, but in the workplace, wherever they show up in relationship. They really want to be wanted by their kids; they want to meet their needs. And oftentimes, they love being the host. This idea of having all the friends over or heading up the carpool. So it’s all about time spent together. Things that twos might want to be aware of, this idea that even though you know your family’s needs, you need to verbalize what yours are. Oftentimes, a two might feel like they are putting their relationship at risk if they verbalize their needs. They are not. That’s one of those things where we want the two to show up as their own individual person as well, to recognize the needs that they have so they don’t end up completely burnt out just meeting the needs of their family. And so, strategies that we will teach twos is do at least one thing for yourself every day. Even if that is just saying to your partner, “I need 15 minutes to shower.” I know too many women who identify as twos, and the entire day is gone and they haven’t showered. Okay, come on now, it’s okay to verbalize that, that you have that need and to have that need met. In terms of kiddos who are parented by twos, there’s some division on this. Some kiddos felt like they loved their parents’ attentiveness and involvement in their lives, and then there are others who felt a little smothered by the two. Helpers, befrienders, as we often call them, they can also fall into that permissive parenting category, where so much of their identity comes from meeting the needs of others, that kiddos won’t learn to dress themselves in a timely fashion. Kiddos aren’t doing chores because mom or dad wants to handle it all themselves. Those are important things for twos to be aware of.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

So it’s like that extreme twoness is sort of, “I’m going to help you, to your detriment. I’m going to over help, I’m going to over function for you.” And I have to wonder too, just because a lot of the work that I do with moms, many of whom I think do fall into this category, even if it’s not their primary, it’s somewhere in those top three. It’s that losing of themselves, that feeling, they do not set boundaries for meeting their own needs. And then the flip side of that is horrible resentment, and then guilt about feeling resentful, because they haven’t articulated their needs, they haven’t taken care of themselves, and it’s sort of this martyrdom kind of thing that gets all thrown in there, too. That’s really unhealthy.

Meredith TerHaar 

And sometimes there’s a weird pride with that too, they are proud of not having needs, until all of a sudden, “Wait, I actually am really resentful that you haven’t figured out I have these needs.” Again, they just need to be verbalized.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

And even to kids, because kids need to know what our needs are so that we can have the expectation that they are going to respect those. But if we don’t ever articulate those and create boundaries around those, then we can’t be resentful when our kids are constantly in our space. We may be feeling like they are disrespecting what our needs are, but we have not made that clear.

Joe Graham 

And I’ve noticed some twos, they want to be treated how they treat others. And that’s an interesting expectation, because they are so good at taking care of what other people need, they also want others to treat them that way. And so some of the gift of this tool is it helps people go, “Oh, I see it this way,” and just because someone doesn’t do it this way doesn’t mean they are not being genuine or authentic or being helpful. They just go about showing their emotions in a different way.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

You said that, and that really resonated. I just remembered that two is my second highest one. So a lot of these, I relate to as well. But when you said that, the expectation of other people understanding and caring about me the way that I do, oh, man, that’s a big one. Oh, Joe and Meredith here you are hitting me with all the things to think about today. Okay, this is great. Let’s move on to the next one in this feelings category. So we did the twos. Next.

Joe Graham 

Are we on three now? Successful achiever, known for being adaptable and excelling. The core desire for the type three is to feel valuable and worthwhile without having to perform, and the core fear is the fear of being worthless, being a failure, being unsuccessful, inefficient. At their best, threes are super optimistic, industrious, efficient, and get so much done. And always looking to go on to the next thing and get that list done for the day.

Meredith TerHaar 

So strengths in parenting for threes: Threes are able to motivate and encourage their kids in a way that inspires growth and persistence growing up. They tend to be their kids’ biggest cheerleaders. They are consistent, they are dependable. Though they are not in tune with their own feelings — Okay, we say that threes are actually feelings-repressed, even though they are in that feelings triad. They can often read the feelings of their kids. In terms of skills to develop or things to be aware of, if you are parenting as a three, work on feeling those emotions. And that sounds strange to somebody who maybe doesn’t identify as a three. What do you mean you don’t feel your emotions? Well, I identify as a three, and let me tell you, when I have a long to-do list, I don’t have time to feel my emotions. I’m just going to shelf them, and maybe I’ll come back to feeling them, or maybe I won’t. That is not a healthy way to process. And I’m well along my Enneagram journey, and this is something I still have to be very intentional about—is pushing myself away from the table and really setting time aside to work through my emotions surrounding something. It takes time for me as a three, which is an interesting thing. We need to work on — This is another thing I’m working on, this idea of staying present with our kids. This is something that we can learn from the nine. Threes are future thinkers, and if we are not careful, we can be with our children physically, but not mentally. We are with them, we are playing, we are down on the ground. To the outside observer, we are fabulous parents, but our mind might be thinking about tomorrow’s meeting agenda, or what else can I do on my to-do list, or “I’m playing now, but can I be multitasking by also folding the laundry?” That is something that oftentimes will go through the mind of a three. So being present with your children. So kiddos who were parented by threes, when they grew up to be adults, if they were success-oriented in nature themselves, then they appreciated what they learned from their three parents. But others felt that their three parents maybe were too pushy towards their goals, or perhaps they didn’t spend enough time with them as children. So those are important insights for three parents to hear. Because that’s not the story you want your kids to tell, that mom and dad were too busy working. That’s not what we hope for.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

So good. And one of the things I’m thinking about, as you talked about this idea of sort of repressing or not being aware of emotions, I wonder then for parents who are threes, if sometimes because they are not paying attention to how they are feeling — and you can sort of push that away for a while, dealing with stuff with your kids. But do these parents have a tendency to let it build up, and all of a sudden, they just sort of lose it? And maybe they and their kids aren’t even sure why they are losing it, but it’s because they haven’t dealt with what they are feeling?

Meredith TerHaar 

100%. I think that’s the idea of containment, right? We can contain these thoughts, feelings, emotions, until all of a sudden we can’t, and they come out sideways. And it could be as simple as somebody spilling milk, which is a perfect childlike behavior, that’s a simple accident. But if it means that we are going to be late for our mom or dad’s next engagement, all of a sudden, things can go sideways so fast, kind of out of the blue. And so yeah, yeah. And for three, it’s typically shame that will rise up to the surface. That’s kind of our core emotional struggle in that triad.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

It’s a great example. Okay, so what’s the last number then in this triad? Tell us about the fours, Joe.

Joe Graham 

The romantic individualist.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

That sounds very fancy.

Joe Graham 

Expressive, creative, idealistic, can be quite sensitive. Their core desire is to find themselves and their unique significance, and we are still in that emotional center. So they have this deep desire to be understood. And their core fear is being ordinary, or being just commonplace, or mundane. So they have a desire to be creative and be original.

Meredith TerHaar 

Yeah. Some of the beautiful strengths that fours bring to parenting: They are not afraid to sit with their kids in tough stuff. Fours, we like to say they are good at lament, which sounds weird, but there are many types that sort of run from difficult emotions. A four does not. A four will sit with their kids and process, not rush through it. They are going to encourage their kids to become who they really are, they are going to encourage authenticity in a way that’s really beautiful. They will draw out their kiddos’ creativity, and they desire deep communication with their children, which leads to a deep connection. Things for fours to perhaps be aware of, or skills to develop: Working on their ability to set aside — not set aside emotions, but to be careful with how far they lean into them. Fours can have a tendency towards the melancholy, and that can become overwhelming for children.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Brooding, sort of just getting lost in the emotion.

Meredith TerHaar 

Right. And then it can feel a little bit like walking on eggshells around, “I don’t want mom or dad to feel sad, so I’ve got to behave a certain way.” And that’s not what we want for our kiddos. We want them to feel free to be who they are. Now kiddos who were parented by fours, this is cool to hear, they say that they were charmed and fascinated by their parents, or frightened of that emotionality and gloominess. So it’s kind of a both/and situation. Parents were just incredibly engaging, charming and creative, but then also had this side where sometimes it felt they were a bit unapproachable.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

And so maybe one of the things to be mindful of here, if you are a parent in that category, is to make sure that your child isn’t feeling in the role of managing your emotions. Showing that. “Yeah, I may feel things deeply and be sensitive, but I am always responsible for myself and my feelings. That’s not your responsibility.”

Meredith TerHaar 

100%. I think you talked about this idea of codependency, and I think that’s something to really be aware of.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Okay. So we have done the gut, we have done the heart, that leaves us with the triad in the head. Is that right? Let’s do it.

Joe Graham 

Yeah, the thinking center, types, five, six, and seven: Primary emotional struggle for these three numbers is anxiety. We could also call that fear. And so anything that causes uncertainty or worry or unknown, and in response to anxiety and fear, the five, six, and seven move towards security. Problem solving, strategizing, ideas, how can I think my way out of this? And each member does that in a different way. The type five, we call the investigative thinker. Perceptive, innovative, core desire is to be capable and competent, even to master things, anything that we do. And the core fear is the fear of incompetence, fear of obligation, fear of being overwhelmed or evaded.

Meredith TerHaar 

So strengths in parenting for our type fives: Because they are so good at staying objective. They are really good sounding boards for their kids. They are not going to inject their own emotions into the situation. They encourage their kids to explore intellectual creativity and curiosity, because fives are naturally curious. And they are really perceptive, and that’s going to help them pick up on their child’s needs. Something that’s really interesting about a five is the way they manage their energy. Joe, do you want to talk about that real quick? And then I’ll get into the place for fives to develop.

Joe Graham 

So I identify as five in the Enneagram, and we perceive our energy as less than, deficit. And so we recognize we only have so much energy to give to others, and that we actually gain energy from our thoughts and having time and space to process. And so we go into each day thinking our battery for iPhone is charged at 25%, even though it’s probably at 100%, because we have planned to make sure we have enough battery life. But our perception is that we only have 25%, and that we only have so much to give.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Wow, I just made a really important connection in my brain about somebody in my life around that. So thank you for saying that, that’s actually really very perceptive and very helpful. Thank you.

Joe Graham 

For me, it’ll be “People will think something’s wrong if I’m quiet”. I do have a lot to say, just not always. And sometimes I just don’t have much to say. So it’s not that I’m upset. I just don’t have anything to say right now.

Meredith TerHaar 

So advice that we will give fives who are parents is this idea of: Get involved in something that you and your child can both love doing, so that it doesn’t feel like you are expending that battery on something you don’t necessarily want to be doing. So there’s an example of a father and son who loved planes, airplanes, so they would go to the airfields together and watch them land. Dad didn’t necessarily have to be talking, as the Enneagram five, but he could just be there with his son and they could be enjoying something together that actually ended up filling their tank. So this idea of finding something that you both enjoy, that you can do together. Kiddos who are raised by fives say that sometimes fives can be cynical, and that was something kiddos noticed, but they really enjoyed the fives whimsical sense of humor, and I want to mention to you guys, some of these insights come from the Enneagram of Parenting by Elizabeth Wagele, so I wanted to mention that before we get to the end of this, there are so many fantastic Enneagram resources, and this is one of them.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Awesome, beautiful. I’m glad you mentioned that. We will put that in the show notes as well. Okay, so we have got the fives. Are we going to sixes next?

Joe Graham 

Yep, around the dial. Loyal guardian, engaging, responsible, sometimes called the loyal skeptic. The core desire for the six is to have security, support, guidance, always pursuing trust. Core fear is fear itself. Danger or uncertainty, not having enough support or guidance or knowing if they are going to be secure.

Meredith TerHaar 

So sixes are amazing at teaching their kids to be hardworking, compassionate towards others, they also model responsibility in a really fantastic way. They are incredibly dependable. And safety is a priority for sixes. Some sixes struggle with worst case scenario thinking. So they will think about Plan A, B, C, D, E, when all we really needed was Plan A or B. So it’s helpful for sixes to work on trusting their own inner wisdom in their parenting decisions, let that inner wisdom guide your parenting journey. For kiddos who were raised by a six, sometimes their parents’ constant worry or fret made them feel like they were not capable of doing something on their own, because mom or dad had thought of all the ways that it could go wrong. “Okay, so how do I move forward?” kind of thing.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

That makes perfect sense. And as you were talking about that, I was like, these may be parents who tend towards being what we might call overprotective, and actually preventing their kids from having growth opportunities and experiences because of their own anxiety around what might go wrong. So that makes sense. And I think for people with kids who tend towards anxiety themselves, one of the areas we see this play out is when parents maybe are this type or struggle with a lot of their own anxiety, they, without meaning to, end up perpetuating a lot of their child’s anxiety, because they themselves are exuding that. So that would be something important to be aware of there. Okay.

Joe Graham 

I just read this week, “Anxiety is contagious.”

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Yeah, and it’s so true. And especially with kids, we have research now showing that when kids are having issues with anxiety, whether it’s clinically diagnosed or not, one of the core interventions that we need to be doing is to have parents manage their own anxiety responses because it has such a huge impact on child anxiety. And I think that goes for parents of all types, but what I hear you saying is for this type in particular, it may be an especially important thing to be aware of. 

Joe Graham 

Anyone in the head triad five, six, or seven.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

All right, so our fives, sixes and sevens, be particularly attentive to that. And that brings us to sevens, our last one in the group here.

Joe Graham 

Here we go. So the seven is the entertaining optimist: Spontaneous, versatile, acquisitive, can be a little scattered. Core desire for a seven is to be fully satisfied and content and to have all of the fun all the time, and the core fear is the fear of being limited, fear of being trapped in emotional pain. Sevens are driven by avoidance, and so we say that the seven avoids pain, but at the same time lives at a level of FOMO. They have this constant fear that they are going to miss out on everything, and that’s one way for them to avoid something that may be uncomfortable or difficult.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Ugh, making another connection for somebody in my life. Alright. That’s a helpful way to describe that. Okay, Meredith, fill us in on what this looks like in the parenting realm.

Meredith TerHaar 

Yeah, absolutely. Just another reminder, a point that we like to make is: This tool is all about compassion, okay? It is compassion for self, it is compassion for others, and when we have these realizations, hopefully it helps us see through the lens of the other member just a little bit more clearly, to have compassion for the way they see and experience the world.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

I think so, for me it’s about perspective taking, it helps me have a tremendous amount of empathy for who that person is and why they handle it that way, as opposed to how I tend to look at it, which is just “Why are they making life difficult?” or “Why don’t they just do it this way?” It allows me to have empathy for where they are coming from. So it’s such a great point. Yeah.

Meredith TerHaar 

So strengths for type seven parents: They teach their kids the power of a great attitude, and looking for good in all things. They want their kids to have lots of adventures, and oftentimes they facilitate those adventures with great enthusiasm. They are not afraid to allow their kids to take risks, so they are pretty different from a six in that way. They find a lot of joy in their kids. Skills to develop or things to be aware of for a type seven parent: Work on expanding that emotional expression. A seven might think that they have got the range of emotions, but what they are feeling is joy, happiness, enthusiasm, and the idea of being sad or disappointed or grieving, those are things that are pretty uncomfortable for a seven. So working on tapping into those things. I have a dear friend who is a seven, and for her being a stay-at-home mom was a little bit of a challenge because she felt limited. Sevens don’t want to be limited. And — complain that their parents wanted too much attention for themselves. The parent kind of always wanted to be the center of attention, because that’s fun, right? But then the kids enjoy their stories and their jokes from living this really robust, seize the day kind of life.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Wow, we made it all the way through them. That was amazing. I know this episode, for those of you listening, probably went by so fast. It went a little longer than I normally do, but this was so fascinating, and I think it’s so important to go through all of these. I know it gave me additional insights about myself, about some people in my life, and so I really appreciate you sharing all that, and the personal connections to it as well. I think there’s a lot of listeners who are going to want to know now how they can explore some of these topics more deeply, maybe where they can get more support around this. So share with us, where can people find out more about the work you are doing or about the Enneagram in general? What are some resources to point us to?

Meredith TerHaar 

Absolutely, well, our website is growingwiththeenneagram.com. On Instagram, we are @Enneagram.grow. And there are a ton of amazing resources out there. Those two platforms are great ways to get a hold of us. As we mentioned, Joe and I do one on one coaching, we do couples coaching, which is an incredible space to use the Enneagram. The aha moments that come from this shared language and safe space is really incredible in marriage and partnership relationships. And then corporate trainings as well—the team dynamics, they just benefit huge when you understand strengths, weaknesses, perspectives, communication styles. So it’s exciting work that we really love to do.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

Awesome. I love it. Joe, as we wrap up here, share one parting thought. What do you want parents to take from this conversation today? If they leave with one thing, what do you want them to keep in mind?

Joe Graham 

Be gentle with yourself as you are gentle with your kids.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens

I love it. Joe, Meredith, thank you so much for being here today. This was fascinating, and I really appreciate the work you are doing around this.

Meredith TerHaar 

Thank you so much for having us. It was a delight.

Dr. Nicole Beurkens 

And thanks, as always, to all of you for being here and for listening. We will catch you back here next time.